Technical Doing a ring job the old way

Back in 2000 a guy brought a David Brown 3 cyl diesel to me. This thing was a really terrible running engine. Had been overheated. Did not have enough compression to hit on every cyl. The blow by would push the dipstick from the tube. I tore it down thinking we would install new sleeves. No luck it was a early block and didn't have sleeves. two pistons where badly scored. Parts where hard to locate. managed to get rings and gaskets shipped from England. I found some used pistons at Ranco Tractors scrap heap. And when I tried to put it together I couldn't fit the new rings into the already excessively honed bore. Looked at them under a magnifying glass. .020. Called England. They stated you gotta make those work. that was the last set we have. So I cut those rings down with a diamond wheel ring cutter I have. And when I got it back together it ran extremely well. I told the owner No guarantee. take it to a auction don't say anything and sell it. He did just that. However a neighbor bought it. and he installed a front end loader on it. and its still going? You never know?

 

Squirrel, I’m in the beginning stages of doing this to my 37 Hudson’s 6 cylinder engine while in the car. There’s no question it would be easier pulling the engine but I’m trying not to have to pull it. We’ll see how that goes.....

Just cut the ridges off the cylinders before I went to Cleveland for my daughter’s graduation last weekend from Case Western Reserve University (Engineering). Hopefully tomorrow I’ll get to pull some pistons out & see what I’ve got & if I can get by with a ball hone. If that works out then I’ll be doing valves and getting rid of the “fiber gears”.

I’m not sure if the big 6’s (yours) has the fiber gears but I understand they are prone to failure. You can get a nice bump in compression by using a 262 head on your 308 & a lot of guys do this. If your not familiar with the 7X Hudson engine, take a google of it as it’s pretty easy to convert to it. Compared to my head gasket, yours isn’t expensive & Best Gasket should have them. There’s great support, knowledge & even parts location through the Hudson Club & Forum do you may look there too.

There’s a guy I know doing land speed racing with his 40’s Hudson & very prepped Hudson engine 6 like yours. Indeed they are expensive to rebuild but are one of the coolest 6 cylinders around. And definitely check out Uncommon Engineering, crazy fabrication, truly amazing stuff they can do!


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The 308 has a timing chain, not gears. I hope not to get into it that far.

 

Good to hear it’s a chain!
I ran across this in some of my Hudson notes from a club expert:

“Now for the overdrive. Your hot wire came from the voltage regulator on the armature terminal as it was only alive when the generator was charging. You install a off and on switch to this wire, and you simply turn it on when you want overdrive. I do all mine this way and it works fine. Remember, no juice can go through until you push in the overdrive cable. The governor and servo will work fine on 12 volts. Warning: make sure all your wires are in good condition. Tape up any frayed areas.”


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I went through the wiring diagram for the overdrive, and figured out how it was wired to the regulator...interesting. I just connected both power wires to the IGN circuit, and it will be working any time it's not locked out. The lockout cable actuates a switch on the back of the unit, that disables the electrical part of it when it's pulled out.

The PO had wired both powers to the battery connection on the starter relay. Not quite optimum, although it should not be energized until the car gets up to speed, anyways.

So far it's been working fine.

 

Be careful. There should be a reverse lockout switch wired in so the overdrive can't be engaged in reverse. Bad things happen. If you wire direct to solenoid and don't disengage the cable you can damage the OD. Just a word of caution to some wanting to wire direct.

 

2 quarts of the cheapest heaviest you have.

 

Your the first person that I have heard of doing that since I learned of it years ago, this shop I used to work at is the first place I had ever seen thay done. The owners son bought a early Ford Fairlane from a old lady that bought the car new and it had very low miles on it ,it had never been driven any further than the city limits except to the next town once a month or something to visit her sister, but the engine smoked some, he had in the shop one day and he had me go across the way to the industrial cleaning supply store and get some industrial heavy duty comet , I get back to the shop he starts the car let's it idle then with the air cleaner off he dumps a big pile of comet in his hand then reaches down to the carb and revs the engine and throws that hand tull of comet right into the carburetor, it chugs , sputtered, rpms drop of then blows a big cloud of crap out the exhaust it clears out then he does it again ,something happens but it clears out idles down smooth sots there and run very quiet, smooth and no smoke . I have told people about doing that and think I'm nuts ...

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Bon ami. comet cleaner. dust from a air cleaner pre cleaner. follow another vehicle down a dusty road with the air filter removed. all those things will scratch the cyl walls and sometimes seat rings on glazed cyl walls. engines with chrome rings (caterpillars have chrome rings and extremely hard liners) are the most likely to benefit from this (fix) it will not work on 99% of engines that are burning oil and smoking.

 

I still have some jars of volcanic ash from when Mount St. Helens erupted, that might do the trick, I know there was alot engines ruined from that stuff when the mountain blew.
Also by your figure of 99% of cars not benefitting from comet or other cleansers to stop them from smoking , well I must have witnessed a rare event then ,because that car smoked and when he was finished putting that stuff down the carburetor it quite smoking and I never saw it smoking any after awhile .

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I used to have a old book from caterpillar on the D2 engine. It outlined a procedure where you fashioned a round disk out of wood to fit loosely in the cyl. lined the premeter of it with felt. soaked the felt in battery acid and hooked two wires from a battery one to the soaked felt and another to the engine block. This etched the cyl liners. The old Cat cyl liners where so hard you could hone for hours and never effect them. 40 years ago I installed new chrome rings in a 49 cat D4 7U. And it used more oil than before I worked on it. I didn't know about the method of etching the cyl walls. Comet cleaner helped it but it still had excessive blow by. Then I got the 4 best sleeves and pistons from a six cyl D6 9U that had a bad crank. installed them without any new rings or cyl honing. And that cured the engine. I still own the old D4.

 

My 99% opinion is because pouring stuff down a engine cannot replace the worn componets. most engines that smoke have worn parts. Yes a just repaired or low mile engine that has no excessive wear but glazed cyls or unseated rings will possibly benefit. On a vertical engine that the cylinders are straight up and down. You can heat a mix of gun grease and STP on the stove till its a very hot liquid. pour a cup full down the spark plug holes on a cold engine. that hot mix will run past the rings and pistons & fill the worn places and solidify. and for a short time will stop smoking and blow by. Usually long enough to run it thru a auction sale?!

 

It was 1964, when I was 15, I did a bearing and ring job on the '53 Willys Aero Ace hardtop, expecting that my parents would let me have it as my first car. Did a great job on it, ran like a top, didn't smoke or burn oil anymore. It was a 161-cubic-inch F-head six. But mom nixed the idea of me having it, thinking I'd kill myself. My parents made up for it years later when they loaned me the money to buy a '64 barracuda when I was 20. Still wish I had both cars today.

 

I realize that these "tricks" do not fix worn parts , they are more of a band aid or you could say a "smoke job"to cover up or disguise a problem, used car lot or like you said auction's.
Years ago I was driving down 82nd in Portland Oregon ,auto row,miles of car lots at the far end were the budget used lots, I spotted something that interested me on the back row of a lot and while I was looking it over , I noticed this pile of saw dust in the back corner of the lot kind of odd I thought, then I remembered hearing the old story about used car lots and wood chips or saw dust being used in transmissions and rear ends to quite down worn howling ones. Buyer Beware

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We did an "in car" re-ring on my flathead (itsa a '39 Merc 99 block) about ten years ago. It was a fresh full rebuild by an old engine builder who had done hundreds of flatheads and bangers. But my engine still burned oil.

We popped the heads and pan, snaked the pistons out, dingle-ball honed the cylinders (they had maybe 1,500 miles on them), replaced the rings with new cast Grants, cleaned everything and reassembled.

It still burns oil. Almost a quart every tankfull. I've asked about the Bon Ami trick and seriously thought about it, but haven't done it yet. About 10,000 miles on this engine now, and adding oil whenever I gas up is just old habit now.

 

Many years ago we had a 55 Chevy with a 265. It was our only car and they were well known to crack pistons. It developed some noise and started smoking. We were young and kinda broke as well. My Dad said bring it here and we will see what's up. We took the heads and pan off and removed the pistons etc. It had two cracked pistons. At that time it was a bit above my level of expertise. We took a ranch pickup home as I had to go to work the next day. He found a couple of pistons at a wrecking yard and we reassembled it. with new cast rings in all cyls. No problems and drove it for a couple of more years.

 

The Bon Ami doesn't only go in the cylinders. I'm sure it makes it way to the oil.
Cam , crank , bearings wear. Might be a limited amount , but it has to get wiped off the cylinders with oil.

 

"I realize that these "tricks" do not fix worn parts , they are more of a band aid or you could say a "smoke job"to cover up or disguise a problem, used car lot or like you said auction's. "
Hmmm. You could also say they are a way of seizing upon and extending the vitality shown by engines way past spec. We have all been raised in a world where a very tight spec means rebore and start over...and we understand, but are oft blocked by poverty of money and time. Yet here we are, looking at a heap that seems to have room for an extra set of pistons and it is still performing its job, running around town and cruising at 60. Its control, though weak, has not totally failed. A really failed engine puts out a fog of oil smoke that will get you arrested even in Somalia. This engine is impaired but not yet out...so it might well seem logical to build on what is possible, eh?
If it still runs possibilities include different rings that might scrape out a better seal, some brutalizing with abrasives to the walls to encourage the engine to re-seal a bit, or maybe just digging out the wall of petrified smoke that has formed in each piston groove. Not optimum but certainly worth a try in a world that lacks money, whether in the third world or in your own backyard! If you have some skills and lots of hope, it is often worth the time...if we are not shelling out skilled "technician" $$$ to do the job. AND note that any conventionally trained pro, unless very old, probably has NO IDEA how to proceed unconventionally! His book only has one solution, micrometer and machine shop, or even just "scrappit, we don't work on anything that far gone."
You can see this route anywhere in true third world, and if you have ever been a starving student with a crap university job, two babies, and a need to eat YOU can join the third world without needing to travel!

 

Yep, did this many times.

My first real engine overhaul besides Briggs & Stratten lawnmower engines, was the 235 six in an early Chevy Suburban. I was just 18 or so and my dad & I re-ringed it and had the valves done by a shop. I learned to clean carbon deposits out of the ring grooves, and dad ran the hone in the cylinders. That was good experience, and great memories. Dads, get out there with your kids and show 'em how to do it.

 

Im gonna say that a ring and bearing job without any machine work is more common than we might think. If you look on E Bay there are plenty of "Ring overhaul kits" for sale. priced less than $100 with free shipping. I always keep one for a large journal 4 inch bore chevy in stock. it fits both 327 and 350 engines.

 

I completely agree, that using products like Comet, Ajax, dust, and volcanic ash, would cause other internal damage. The reason for this is, that the main component is quartz, or quartz based compounds, that would scratch and cause abnormal wear in the engine.
The warning associated with the use of this procedure, was to not use any product other than Bon Ami, or the person would risk damaging the cylinders.
Bon Ami is a soft compound, primarily composed of feldspar. Their advertisment back then was, that it would not scratch fine porcelain.
Just because one powder might work, doesn't mean that any powder would work.

Even from my limited experience of washing cars in a used car lot in the 50s, that it was not a place of high moral standards. I never saw the sawdust trick used, but was aware at the time of the used car salesman's trick of putting sawdust in the rear end to quiet the noise.
Bob

 

For the purpose of getting this thread back on track and not turning into a discussion on powdered cleansers , I originally commented on the bon-ami or cleansers in general post because it reminded me of the event that I witnessed years ago , and that post was the first that I have heard of it being used for something similar to what I saw. It did seem to stop the smoking of the car, did it fix the car? No, do I think it is a miracle cure? No, have I tried it myself? No, would I ever do it to any thing of my own or anyone else's? No....Nuff said on that...
And yes I have done in frame rebuilds on Cummins powered trucks and on the Detroit 8V92 and 8V92-T we would roll new bottom end bearings in at every 100,000 miles.

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Gomer said to tell you he says "Hey".

 

I think you're right Old Wolf. Many, many old Ford flatties were rebuilt like this, the guys did not go to the great extent that HAMB members go to when rebuilding them. Not to diss the guys doing full rebuilds, but if you're short on money there's nothing wrong with just doing a minimal repair and getting that engine back to work.

 

We as a group of Hot Rodders tend to overbuild or over-repair(is that really a word?) things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking apart an engine and just fixing what is wrong instead of a complete rebuild.


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If one is just going to re ring, one of this come in handy.
It's a go no go ring land gauge, most used pistons I have pulled out the ring land are worn out and need to cut for a spacer.

 

I remember when I was 10 or 11 I was staying at my grandmother's house while my parents went out of state for a wedding. My uncle lived in the upstairs apartment. He had a 46 Pontiac with a flathead six. It was knocking, burning oil and smoking. He had it up on ramps, drained the oil and the coolant and pulled the head. The next morning a guy pulled in with a panel truck opened the rear doors, and I was hooked for the day. He brought a machine that looked like a small oil derrick with a electric motor on the top, and then hauled out a bunch of tools,proceeded to drop the pan, pull the pistons and did some measuring. He told my uncle he needed two at plus 20 and one at plus thirty and new rings for all six. The derrick thing was bolted to the block over the cylinder some rags were placed over the crank and he proceeded to bore the cylinder to match the oversize pistons he was installing. He switched to another tool to do what I realized later was hoping. I remember him installing the rings, fiddling with the ends then putting them down the cylinders. He buttoned everything up re using the old head gasket, and started the thing up. It smoked for a few minutes then cleared up. He shut it down collected his money, told my uncle to change the oil and filter in a week. Said he would be back in a couple days to retorque the head. So the old Pontiac ran around for the next three or four years with three different sized pistons. With the low compression back then you probably couldn't tell the difference anyway.

 

Today! I just finished honing the cylinders of my 37 coupe’s original engine while still in the car. Heck of a workout standing in the battery box/frame & using the HF 3 leg hone.

Since the cylinders & pistons mic’d standard it was the best choice for me to get it back on the road & making memories with the kids. Rod journals mic’d standard too, so I gave them a mirror finish with some metal polish & microfiber towels cut into strips. Ordering new rings tomorrow & valve job to follow shortly.


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I have seen Bon-ami work on ring jobs with crome ringswhere the rings did not seat, not on worn parts

 

It takes me about 2-3 hours by myself to get an engine out. Maybe 4 if it's especially complicated or there are a lot of accessories and electric. I just don't see the benefit of leaving it in the car to do. While it's out you can do so much more thorough of a job. I just feel like yanking an engine is one of those jobs where you just dread it, hem and haw about doing it and about how much it's going to suck. And then you get to work, and before you know it, the engine is out.