Technical Drawing a line in the sand

Buster is tops in my book,he also built the chassis under both of Deuce Roadsters cars. HRP

 

I know the difference in traditional and non-traditional. Problem is my budget doesn't always allow me to go 100% traditional, so I fudge some things. I might use a 350 SBC, but put older camel hump 461 heads on it. When it comes to things that can't be seen, I often do what I like. Brakes are another area that I often fudge on. I know a set of late model GM discs aren't period, but I like the way they stop.
I also use later steering columns if something good works, but is newer. I like having a modern plug in steering column, as it makes less headaches for me when wiring.
I try to shoot for a certain era that suits the build, but when it comes down to dollars or safety, I'll do what works out best for me. Even if it means the HAMB police arrest me.

 

Fortunately there is a seat for every rear end,some refuse to use a repro parts or built after 19?? others opt for what they can find and afford.

For myself I tend to color outside the lines when it comes to the dead nuts,period perfect 100% totally traditional build style..few here have accomplished that feat...

I'm not saying they haven't but when we get so anal about it there is going to be something the 100% purist have missed.

I guess my old 4 door deuce is about as close as I ever got,but with mustang steering,4 bar and a super Bell axle it wasn't a traditional hot rod.



I believe I could build a traditional car but I don't have the patience to do it! HRP

 

Wow! This thread sure went to shit. I see the usual "chip on the shoulder", shit stirring, rude assed, "if you don't agree with me you're stupid and I'm going to beat you down until you regret that you ever expressed an opinion different from mine" bullshit. Too bad.

The original question from Benno was:
"where do you draw the line when it comes to how traditional your builds are. Do you for instance think that an LS engine is OK, or perhaps you would use a MIG welder but not a TIG when you are building or mud instead of lead, repop parts are OK or you must only buld with Gennie old parts. You catch my drift, right?"

How in the hell is it not possible to answer that question without stirring up shit?

 

Damn HRP! There are very few 4-doors I like but man I love this one!!. Every time I see a pic of this car I'm struck by how beautiful it is.

 

I'm not trying to pick on you,we all are entitled to our on ideas but I have never had a problem with a guy wanting a glass car or how he chooses to pursue and build or buy his dream car,be it Model A,deuce or classic Chevy.

The All Deuce Run that a bunch of guys went on a few weeks ago were also at LARS this past weekend,,some were real Henry's,some were Brookville and others were glass,,for us here in the Southland we don't care,,be it flathead,sbc or whatever..if it looks lik a deuce we welcome it with open arms. HRP

 

For me its the 20 ft rule. If as you walk up on the car it gives you the feeling of a traditional car, then that is OK with me. Now, with said, as I get closer, and look inside or under the hood, I do not expect to see any motor manufactured at the 60's (no LS, no Coyote, no EFI). I do not want to see tween inside the cockpit. I want to see something similar to the build era for interior and motor for me to consider it traditional (to which ever era it was built to). (if you are building a traditional 80s ride, then tweed, pastel and tune port motor is a must but not for a 40s, 50s or 60s style ride.)

 

Boones hit the nail on the head...

I like using traditional parts... but my traditional is the sixties Drag Hotrods just before they were replaced with the Muscle cars!

And yes I'll stick electronic ignition and other subtle upgrades on the car because the original performance parts such as magnetos, Ardun heads, Scott Blowers, magnesium wheels, Kinmont brakes, have become so pricey it changed the essence of HotRod building from "Best bang for the buck" to "Way too many bucks"!

What it boils down to is... I'm building a car I can enjoy and can drive with as many affordable period correct parts... if it takes a few more aftermarket parts to get it on the road... so be it as long as it maintains the traditional "VIBE"!

 

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. I built my Avatar 48 with a theme in mind. I wanted it to look like an old survivor. I wanted it to be like a 50's/60's shop truck. A little old, with faded paint, low enough to have an attitude, painted wheels, a comfortable interior, a 350/350 drive train and dead nuts dependable. I've got close to 70,000 miles on the truck and it's done every thing I've ever wanted it to do. It's got an original Mustang 2 front suspension since day one, 83 Monte Carlo 10 bolt rear with Posies springs, and its on its 2nd engine (by choice). I make no apologies for my choice of suspension or drive train. Is it traditional? Thats a pretty wavy line but probably not. But I do like the truck, A LOT and that is probably the bottom line, wavy or not. BILL RINALDI

 

SHOOT!
Was that Pamona thing -LA?GR? whatcha call it today. Man well i guess im not to upset i missed it . I will just take YOUR word on it.

-HRP. thats one nice 1932 sedan! So coveting that , dont even care what is under the hood.

 

I guess my line is wavy to the point of circles.

Its funny that someone referenced the Corvette crowd - I am just finishing a Vette project that the Corvette purists hate. Let them. The car looks stock to most people, but looks and runs better than it ever did stock. I don't care what they think. I'm happy with it.

I feel the same way about the next project . . . a traditional "appearing" hot rod. To me by very definition a Hot Rod is something built to improve the performance and looks, to the individual taste of the builder. So I don't see where anyone can draw a line in the sand and tell me what is "correct" for my car.

I respect and admire a truly 100% traditional build, just like I admire a beautifully done restoration, or even some very modern late model builds. I cannot afford the former, and do not desire the latter, but I do have something specific that meets my needs and gets me excited just looking at the beginning of the parts pile.

So it will have an early sixties appearance, as many authentic parts as I can afford, as many repro parts as necessary, and enough modern parts hidden as best I can so that the car will reliably let me use it for work running regionally over four or five states in any weather except snow. Not every day, but hopefully three out of every five. This isn't a Sunday toy.

Is that wrong? I don't see how it can be - its my car, so I'm the only one who knows what its supposed to be!

Just like my Corvette, I hope most people will see it and admire effort and craftsmanship of the build . . . and the purists who attempt to judge it - they can kiss my #$%.

 

Seriously guys, enough with the name calling and grandstanding...

 

Y'all need a hobby.

 

Traditional is not solely related to any specific years, should be added to the definition. No one era can lay claim to the term traditional. When I hear traditional I do not relate it to the 20's, 30's, 40's etc. I think Ryan covers it pretty good when he says keep it period correct with traditional methods of the era. Not his exact words but thats the jest I get from the rules of the Hamb

 

I lead, torch weld, run points and drum brakes(even in my daily) and i believe no motor newer than '72 should be in a traditional rod(my '65 daily is getting a '68 327 for example). As repop goes, only if it is identical, meaning i will buy a nice repop '32 shell only to weld up the filler hole myself, the only place i make consessions is where parts are fully unobtainable(where the hell can i get a set of box welded 300 6cyl rods recut to fit a sbc?for example)

Oh and about drum brakes... They seem to lock my car up just fine, it isnt like i can stop faster than my tires grip the road, just make sure they are properly put togather, put some muscle into it!

Basically i sum it up by saying that these cars were running driving dailys in the 1950's why do you think they need modenizing? Go buy a kia, because obviously that is what you want!

 

trying to define traditional is very divisive. i thought this way when ryan first came up with the traditional and traditionally styled forums. everyone developes an us against them attitude.

 

I see it like this -

You should expect a similar reaction from any of these...

Walk into a Chevy dealership and explain why fords are better.

Jump on a mustang forum and talk about your Chevy

Justify your choice of owning a Honda motorcycle to a group of Harley riders.

Then there's this ...

 

It's not that I didn't try to build a 100% traditional car, it's that I didn't care to. Imagine that.

 

Well, I did read a lot but not all, and Beaner, nice topic bruz.

I restore for a living. I keep an eye out for kool shit I can use later. Whatever I get finished 1st will be done with a restorer's eye 1st, modified next. My A pickup is bombin around with no fenders, boards, aprons or hood. Otherwise it's stock. I could get all King Kong and stand in the box pounding my chest as to how traditional that is, but why? I'm doing that because I'd be an asshole to let a good running A pickup sit around waiting for those parts to get done. It might get juice brakes down the road some day, it might get sold for a decent profit and get replaced with a coupe. I also have a 61 Belair spt cpe (bubbletop to most). With a restorers eye, a few 60s speed parts, a decent stance and rollers, nobody will think it's any more or less than a traditional 60s mild kustom. Some chrome might get shaved, I have some hand-fab grille ideas, a small block with trips, OEM style chrome wheels and fat whites. It's gonna get blurry when you dig deep. 700R4, most likely an alternator, surely a kickin sound system hidden on the spare tire deck. Out front there's already disc brakes and upgraded steering, and all the handling parts I can get to work without being to obtrusive will find their way in there too. Why? Because i wanna roll down the freeways at 70-75 MPH, get good mileage, and most important to me, be able to make quick defensive moves to keep from getting tagged by the typical Detroit area fuckheads on the roads!

I also swapped in a 65 GTO last summer from our fellow member "safari-wagon". It has 66 disc brakes and old ET 14" mags on it already, but mostly a "restored" car. I see no reason to change direction whatsoever. It's sure to have some period decals here n there and the exhaust will be kept "just right" (I hope!). That's just smart thinking for the future IMO. It might turn into a 38 deluxe/39 standard coupe some day.

Bondo? Not if I can help it, but it's a nice finishing aid that's been around a long time. Lead? Only where the part might flex a bit or when I'm in the mood to have fun without costing me much in time or grief. Torch welding? Nope, gimme a TIG any day of the week and twice on Sunday. MIG? Indeed, and always ready to squirt some hot metal glue as needed. Lacquer? Only as needed since I can still get it and have some stashed, but I choose to work the shit out of urethane to get a lacquer look on the restored stuff. So far, so good. Being a restorer for 4 decades might give me a slight advantage now and then with regard to "keeping it right".

There's some things I see now and then that make me walk away. Gratuitous billet steering wheels, those flexy metal hoses, braided stainless and AN fittings where they don't belong, and yet I won't judge their use. When I see a $90 Grant wood wheel in a semi-restored muscle car I have to wonder what else was done cheap. Little things that trip my mental alarm are really common but those folks are having fun and perhaps have to feed kids while they seek their dreams. I don't like modern street rods in any form regardless of the engineering and performance features. I hate 17-18-20 inch wheels on nearly anything, but again, living in the greater Detroit area jades me on em. We have holes in our roads big enough for families to live in!! Ok not really but...

Again, nice discussion Beaner, and thanks. No line in the sand here. That shit might get in the paint!

 

I believe Dave just hit the nail squarely on the head!

This is the reason Ryan has given guys like us,the majority of the posters here a separate platform to have our discussions and post rods & customs that don't conform to the almost restorer like mentality of the 100% traditional built cars..

Don't get me wrong,it's fine for those that have that drive and desire to recreate a time long gone,but there is also room for the masses also. HRP

 

Most of My Hot rods are mostly traditional they run mid 50's engines olds/caddys/buicks plus most of them uses automatics (hydros) from the mid 50's.
Sure there were things added too them in the 70's and later too make them more dependable and eventually I will replace them too a more period look like alternator too generator and such plus
All of them run bias-plys.



Posted from Austinrod

 

Cunifer was first used in production Volvos in 1976, anybody (HAMB quality viewer) looking at your engine is going to realize it's not period copper. That said, Cunifer is much much better as far as wear resistance and durability, a best product for fuel and brake lines, IMHO.

 

My own line is drawn in fairly serious concrete, though it differs both in location and direction from those of many. It has to do with an approach to design and technology: hence "Ned Ludd".

On the OK side are technologies and design approaches which promote durability, are responsive to manual adjustment, reward craftsmanship, allow repair and replication by fairly normal people, and generally encourage creative messing-with: i.e. you actually own what you paid for in a meaningful sense of the idea of ownership.

To me the history of the automobile is the history of an agenda to create dependence and eliminate competition, which began when Ford changed the T's firewall from wood to steel. Ford was human enough to be a knot of contradictions: he wanted farmers to be able to fix a Model T with a hammer and baling wire, but he didn't want his own employees to start making Model Ts without his say-so. The two considerations are intrinsically contradictory. That the general trend of the history is thus means that it is merely to be expected that I should often prefer the older over the newer.

So,

• Radials are OK because they are made pretty much like crossplies, only cleverer.
• Alternators are OK: the guys at Otherpower make their own for wind turbines and such. Out of wood.
• Air bag suspension is OK but airbag passive restraints aren't.
• Disc brakes are OK
• Aluminium radiators are OK if they have metal tanks
• Glassfibre is OK. The political-economic factors that cause our stuff to be non-renewable and therefore scarce commodities are neither natural nor spontaneous. Whatever tends to overturn them is to be encouraged. That includes any and all repro bits, though obviously the better-made the better.
• Overhead-cam engines are OK, if they have carburettors and distributors (or are diesels)
• All-alloy engines are OK, if they have carburettors and distributors (or are diesels)
• Diesels are OK if they have mechanical distribution pumps
• Manual gearboxes with as many speeds as you'd care to name are OK
• Electronic ignition based on a single whopping great power transistor is OK (that's about the line right there)
  
• Turbochargers are OK (it's one bearing to solve, for Heaven's sake!) as long as they feed or are fed by carburettors (or are on diesels)
  
• E96 and B100 are OK, moreso if home-brewed
  
• CV joints are OK
• Rack-and-pinion steering is very OK indeed
  
• Gilmer belts are tolerable if chains cannot be had

But:

• Even original sealed-beam headlights from 1941 are NOT OK. That is where the whole thing took a huge turn for the worse.
• EFI is not OK, and quite possibly worse if hidden or disguised
  
• Computerized ignition is not OK
• Electric propulsion is not OK
  
• Independent suspension can very easily fall into the not-OK by demanding undue torsional rigidity of the vehicle structure
• Air conditioning, power steering, power windows, and automatic transmission only belong on cars that are big, cushy, and opulent - and they belong together. You can't have one without the other three. Shifting gears to cocoonish white noise just feels wrong.

I wouldn't have a fuel-injected, computerized Flathead, for instance, no matter how pompadour-and-bobby-socks it's been made to look. I'd readily have two SU HIF6s on a Subaru EJ25, though, with a Ford CVH distributor bolted to the back of the right-hand cylinder head and painted a suitable tractor-engine shade. That's the plan for the Morris (if I get to it before I die ...)

 

That's why I said 99%....

Also just for shit's and giggles Both the Chinese and Romans were using a copper/nickel/iron alloy thousands of years ago...So yeah....they may not have called it Cunifer, but it's not some new space age material.

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Interesting question...I appreciate and I think fully understand the traditional aspect, and appreciate that some guys have the time ,or will piss away the money to have a builder make them a perfect early car. I"m building a car now and will use some "inappropriate" parts just to finish it in a timely fashion...can always change out some of the simpler things later if it seems worth it. Most of the folks who see it won't have a clue, including lots of the traditional police. Really the only reason I'm replacing my T at all is so I will have a steel body, and room for my feet.

 

I narrowly escaped rear-ending a McLaren supercar that changed lanes into mine, at the last second, while I was already under hard braking, for an accident. This was a few days after bedding-in the pads, on the newly installed power discs, on my Falcon. That collision could have eclipsed my insurance coverage.

I cannot drive on 1960's roads, with 1960's traffic, with 1950's brakes. There are few to no back roads here. It is most often crowded freeway, or no way.

I get tradition. Nobody that I am sharing the road with cares about it, or me, or my cars.

 

I have built many cars with efi, built auto trans, all the computer stuff.

my current build will be a true AV8. the motor is a 53 nothing will be newer except the tires, and other softgoods. but hot damn it is hard as hell to find everything that I need to do this correctly. Its more of a challenge this time to build correctly. It limits what you can do and put together. many many more miles walked in parking lots/ swapmeets and backyards. many more miles driven to find the part you want. many more dollars spent rebuilding, than buying new.

beaner- thats a great question. we will see what happens and if my line in the sand will stay true or be swayed by the wind

Even after all is said and done I keep thinking man a t5 would really allow my old dog to run around on the highway at a nice speed!

 

Austinrod-

put some gas in your car

 

Non-working gas gauge is about as traditional as it gets!

 

It never had a hook up for the gas tank I need too get a new gas tank for it too work
Plus speedometer doesn't work either


Posted from Austinrod