Dumb Q: 5.0 Vs 289/302. What's the differences?

Can't seem to find anything via the Search, so better ask rather than guess....

I've never been exposed to the later windsors so don't really understand why the difference in designation (afterall, if the US uses imperial measurements why call it a "5.0"??). The 5.0s weren't done in massive numbers here and were all cast in the US anyway (the ones we got were).

Here goes:

A. Are the blocks the same dimension/design-wise? Is it right that the 5.0s are roller cam? All of them or just a later spec block?

B. Do all OEM heads interchange?

C. Does an OEM 5.0 intake fit a 289/302 block (ignoring the {if any} EFI-factor for a moment)? For example, can I buy a 5.0 intake and use it on a 302 without any mods?

D. What about w/pumps, sumps, valve covers, oil pumps, etc.? Do they interchange at all?

Thanks in advance for any answers that can clarify this for me.

 

Don't know too much, but. All 5.0 are not rollers. 289s are not five litre. There are MANY different pullys and pumps. But all from same motor will interchange from 289 to 302. Kinda? And the good 302 blocks were cast in Mexico!! This is just what I think. So wait for the experts. Ford Forever.......OLDBEET

 

I realize the 289 isn't 5 litres, but it's part of the same family as the 302. FWIW, I'm using 289 heads (US-cast) on a 302 block (Australian) with the 302 pistons, rods and crank....but 289-302 swaps aren't what I'm questioning. It's the 289/302 to 5.0 stuff I don't get.

Oh yeah, I'm not concerned with valve-to-piston clearance type issues. The questions are more about interchangeability.

Seems that after 84/85 the 5.0s used roller cams, from what I've found elsewhere. And notched pistons looked to come into effect from 85.

But I'm getting away from the basic questions myself!

 

We just call um small block Fords over here, and change parts between them all the time. I know ya can get some compression from the earlt (260-289) heads. Someone will chime in. G'day...........OLDBEET

 

All the intakes and stuff should interchange, blocks as well.BUT, on the blocks be careful because the 63-64 blocks(260-289) used a 5 bolt bellhousing,1965-up use a 6-bolt bellhousing.Other than that all shoud swap fine..........and I will have a part rundown on the crate this weekend.G-Day

 

I believe early 302's were stroked 289, modified at the factory to homogate the motor to Trans Am spec which allowed 5 liter maximum displacement for the racing class. I believe the Boss 302 (68?) was the beginning of the "modern 302".

 

More info at this link;

http://www.classictrucksweb.com/tech/0212ct_alternative/

 

Here you go:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86853
try a search on 302 instead. There's a bunch of stuff right here on the HAMB!

 

Thanks Larry.

 

A.) All blocks are dimesionally the same. 289-302 all the same dimensionaly. Same main journals. Same bore, same cam bearings.

B.) Yes. They all interchange.

C.) Yes. A 5.0 IS a 302. Intakes swap between 302's and 289's early intake may not have proper port sizes for some heads.

D.) Water pumps and fron timing covers exchange. But there are a large number of possible combos. Would be easier to answer specific questions.

On the topic of roller cams... roller cams became OEM on '85 Mustang GT's. All 302/5.0's from Mustangs '85 to end of production are roller cam. Starting around 1992-'93 all 302 blocks started being roller cam complient, though not all 302's had roller cams in those years.

A 302 has a 3.00" stroke. 289 has 2.87" stroke. As I stated earlier the bore is 4.00" for both. All 302 blocks are offically 8.205" deck height though there has bee known slight variences. Cranks interchange. Pistons are identical. 289 rod is slightly longer. 302 rod is 5.09", 289 is 5.15". Best 302 block is the 1969/70 Boss 302 block. It's the strongest factory block, has 4 bolt mains and it worth a small fortune. They are getting really rare.....ie expensive. In 1982 when the 302 came back from the abortion 255 (stay away '80-'82) they took out some material inthe main webbing makeing them goo dto around 450-500 hp at the crank. Anything serious on traction in that power range will split the block into two halves eventually. Earlier blocks have about 20 pounds more wieght and it's all in the main journal webbing.

Any other questions?

 

Thanks JM....hmph, I didn't even think of trying "302"....too focused on "5.0"!

 

Awesome....just the info I was after. Much appreciated.

There's so many little variances just in the 289/302 realm that I didn't want to get too specific as I've learnt that they're really just issues to be dealt with case by case.

Cheers!

 

If you want a powerful, reliable, 87 octane pump gas 302, build any '85-up roller cam engine with aftermarket heads or Thumper ported E7TE OEM heads - stock Mustang head from '87-'95 - (www.thumperoforangepark.com) add a Ford Racing Performance Parts B303 or TrickFlow Stage 1 camshaft on stock replacement GT pistons. will run on pump gas all day without any problems. Drop a Weiand Stealth on top with a 625 and have about 360 hp at the crank.

I can get more detailed if you tell me your specific application idea.

 

Firing order is different.

 

Oh yes forgot about that.

289/302 till '81 was 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
All 302's '82 up and all 351W are 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

 

87-octane? I don't think we go that low! Lowest here is 91/92. I run 98.

At the moment I'm keeping my current block (from a '69/'70 Aussie Falcon) and heads, although I'd like to go for an aftermarket head down the track. It's thoughts of converting to EFI that essentially have me asking these questions.

 

Shit I didn't even notice you were in Oz. You guys have some sweet stuff down there.

 

98 octane!?!? Damn. Go 10:1 for sure then. You may have different blocks in Australia, but I'm sure all the parts exchange still.

 

couple other things to note,

5.0 had 50 oz balance, 289/302 had 28 oz

sepertine belt water pumps turn reverse rotation

there's a slight difference in oil pump drive shaft lengths between efi distributors and carbed dizzys, make sure you use the correct one.

 

Exactly right, but not really an issue. You can run any cam in any block 289/302/5.0/351W - just use the firing order for the cam you choose.

In theory, the firing order was changed to reduce the stress on the front of the crank (1 & 5 are the two front cylinders) from firing right after each other.

 

I read once that it was also to reduce vibration some how.

 

Don't forget too, all H.O. motors are sequencial fired (only the cylinder coming up on it's power stroke has it's injector pulsed or fired) port injection and use the 351 firing order (see posts above) and were either speed density (86-7 and non California 88) or mass air (88 California and all the later ones 89 on), including all the non car ones produced after 95. Indeed the heads (GTP) and intakes from the 2000(01) Exploror (exploder?) are thought to be the best ones Ford produced. The non H.O. motors all used the earlier 289/302 firing order and after throttle body injection was rightfully put into it's grave, were using batch fired (1/2 the cylinders fired every other revolution) speed density port injection which appears visually identical to the speed density sequencial injection and used the smaller throttle body (58mm as apposed to 60) and intake manifold (which has smaller passages) as the 86 H.O., and used low performance heads. Remember too, the 86 H.O. used a head that shrouded the valves and didn't perform as well as the truck sourced H.O. ones from 87 on until the GTP heads were released.

 

This is not true. I am positive that all roller cam 302's used the H.O./351 firing order. Some flat tappet 302's after '82 might have used the early firing order but I don't think so. I'd have to research that more.

Actually no I don't need to research it. I just remembered the '84 HO 302 used the exact same camshaft as a '69 Torino. That was the early firing order.

 

A 5.0 is a 302 and a 289 is smaller, same basic block they started calling it a 5.0 litre to compete with the overseas makers.

Some of the early small blocks had a different set of bolt holes for the bellhouseing and require an early bell.

The later 5.0s are a roller cam mill, and if you want to use the late model cam in the earlier blocks you have to do some minor machine work.

But the basics is that the 5.0 is just a 302 and many of the pieces will interchange.

 

Now let's talk C4 variants and timing cover swap logistics! LOL

Damn Ford and their endless changes....

 

There was method in their madness, that was so you couldn't just snag any old Ford part and bolt it onto your old hooptie. You had to have a model specific part that in theory you would buy new from them instead of cheap from your neighbor's old wreck.

 

Let's not and pretend we did.

 

Here's a little known fact - the GTP heads have raised exhaust ports, require unique headers, & can cause clearance problems when regular headers are bolted on in non-original applications...

I also believe the '86 had a one-year-only flattop piston that will not clear big valves...but could be wrong. I just seem to remember a piston issue with '86...anyone??

 

TJM: I'm actually running around 10.1:1 to 10.2:1 compression.

Thanks for all the info everyone.

Will have to wait for the budget to recover from a house purchase before I do anything about upgrading my motor again. Got a lot of research to do, re: EFI, so I've got plenty of time up my sleeve.

 

Okay let me throw another monkey wrench into this interreting debate/infomercial.

I have an '87-88 Non-HO 5.0 and from what I've gathered, NON-roller engine. It's in a 87-88 Lincoln Town Car chassis (the basis for my frame swap.)
I had previously thought before reading this post, it had the standard 302 firing order as well...now I'm not so sure.

This engine is F.I. & speed density. I don't plan to use it since I picked up a "crate" engine for cheap.

I picked up a 2000 Explorer longblock, complete minus intake and dist.

I know it has the "short" water pump.

It has the GTP heads.

I know I need a steel gear on the dizzy to be compatible with the roller camshaft.

I have heard that with the GTP Heads that the Mustang shorty headers won't work (which is what I'd planned to use and already have), but after bolting them up, I'm not so sure anymore.

I plan to bolt on a '77-79 302 Ford 2 BBL manifold and convert to a 2 BBL carb & an electronic distributor (I already have the parts laying around) - either Duraspark or Petronix (one-wire) FOR NOW to get this heap RUNNING. No comments from the peanut gallery!

Aside from the potential pulley problems with the shorter water pump, is there anything else I need to worry about with the swap from EFI-intended-engine to Carb? I know I need an electric fuel pump, the 2000 302 doesn't even have a boss on the timing cover for the mechanical pump.

Someone mentioned the dizzy/oil pump shaft legth as being a concern, is this true? I hadn't come across that one before after my research...my only worry before was to just make sure I got the steel gear for the dist.

mercman