Technical Early Dodge Truck Hemi Identification, and Good Buy?

The truck 354 I’m building now isn’t costing anymore than the last big block Chrysler I built.

 

The ones with the 4 bolt outlets. My '56 truck 331 has them. They also came on the early 300's, which accounts for their scarcity.

 

Costs may depend on local shop rates and how well you shop for parts. I'm so far out of the loop on my local shop rates and local means a 20 or 30 mile drive in either direction after I hit the intersection 2 miles from the house as I have no local machine shop closer. Very honestly a guy who was set up to redo cylinder heads including valve jobs including replacing the guides and turning drums and rotors and little else could set up a cubby hole shop in this town and have plenty of business that was 80% labor. The local farmers would keep you busy with just those two items. It is probably what I should have done when my auto mechanics teaching job got closed out at the high school. Provide a limited number of needed services for the public that other shops such as the tires stores or parts houses see as a pain in in the butt but will provide a comfortable living in the long run.

 

My point is it doesn’t cost anymore the machine work than any other engine, I just got rod and main bearings for mine , they were $110 a set Canadian. Not building one because of cost is an excuse. No engine is cheap to build anymore

 

If you really want a Chrysler hemi there is a 331" short block and heads with the machine work done for sale in the HAMB classifieds for less than $ 1,000.

 

Don't let these two images encourage you or intimidate you!
@ClarkH is correct about offering the $100.00.
But do spend a lot of time in considering which path your going to take!

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Its not the machine work that jacks the cost up its the parts .
Factor in a aftermarket intake that is no longer made except for Hot heads,, a timing cover and valve coveres most will want for looks , oil filter adapters most want , water pump and fuel pump that is correct , The extra cost for pistons that need to be custom made for a 331 especially , cams , gaskets , bearings then a trans adapter and your talking a LOT more than most common engines .

There is nearly no used hot rod stuff out there that is not priced way way up .

No engine is cheap to build anymore ? Not true sure machine work is more across the board but I just got pricing on doing a SBC for the neighbor .

Bore and deck work will be about $375 with deck plates . ( what shop has Hemi deck plates these days if ever ) he is doing a basic 350 SBC his parts are under $500 with a cam . we went to the swap meet this summer and he got a nice after market intake, distributer , headers, race oil pan , roller rockers , aluminum valve covers for under $300 and he had choices on much of it . his rebuild kit form Northern is like $275 or so with upgraded gaskets. He is redoing a set of Vortec heads with 2.02 valves and the valves are dirt cheap he will have less than $1800 in it and it wll make 400 HP or so . Is it a boring engine sure but its going in 50's chevy PU and will look correct.

Just the gasket set for my 331 cost more than the an entire basic rebuild kit for a SBC.

Some guys do not have $5000 to build or the time to find old over priced parts .

Show me a deal on a good aftermarket intake and ill buy it . I have bought four 2x4 SBC intakes this year for under $200 . Id be luck to find a hemi 2x4 or 3x2 for under $900 these days and many are $1500 if there even more rare.

Machine work is not the issue its the cost of the other parts and hooking it up to a good trans

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this easy test to help determine it's worth.

Remove one of the spark plug covers. If you see "bumps" like these it's worth a lot more than if it doesn't have them. The parts under those bumpy covers are highly desirable items.

 

Negotiating price is always a subjective thing. If you offer too high, you probably will get what you want. If you offer too low, you may insult the seller and he decides to just wait for anothet buyer. If you offer a middle ground price, the seller is often willing to negotiate or just sell.. Depends on how bad his wife wants him to get rid of it................

 

Looked on the local Facebook pages and saw a couple of Hemis for sale. One is pretty clean and probably a 330 for $1500. Has a 727 automatic with it. Richmond Ky by Wiggie Benton listed a week ago





The other is 1956 354 sitting on an engine stand and there is a video of it running. Guy is asking $6300 and been for sale for 27 weeks. Located in Alvaton Ky by Robert Graves if anyone is interested. (Engine sounds good in the video)

www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1449818549002443?ref=saved&referral_code=null

 

Ah, the 'bumpy' industrial valve covers......Only the Marine, Industrial and Chrysler 300 had the bumps. And only the Marine and 300 had the adjustable rockers. So, why do the Industrial covers have bumps? Good question, get in your time machine and ask one of the old guys at Highland Park. In the last 50 years I have never seen adjustable rockers in/on an Industrial and everyone had the bumps. Trucks used hydraulic lifters to keep the maintenance to a minimum. Picture a grain or corn hauler working an Iowa field for 20 hours a day....little time to chase a lifter tick. If anyone has a truck valve cover with the bumps please post a photo.

 

??? That's a "long bell"; '51-'53 Chrysler 331. A 330 would be a Desoto without the cast in bellhousing.

 

I could have got adjustable rockers a few weeks ago for about half he going rate but it was a 3 hour drive THEN i needed valve covers with bumps for likely another $300 or who knows or spacers then the rigth tubes for $300 or more .
I decided id get adjustable push rods if i need a adjustable vale train in the future.
now if it has the right valve covers and also the rockers and its cheap then great but then you better like painted valve covers or get out the wallet again .

I wish I had gone and got them just because they were a great deal but I don't think id have gained much money wise in the end not time to make adjustments is a different matter .

I remember in the early 70's all the vineyards in northern CA had wind machines with big airplane like props up on towers and most had industrial Hemis on them for frost protection . Then thye found you could spray water on a freezing grape so it formed a ice barrier and all those wind machines went away in about 5 years there were hundreds if not thousands of them Hemis as you drove down highway 101 north of Healdsburg . Makes you wonder were they all went.

I remember thinking Garlits has a Hemi and wondering what these engines had different and I was like 10 years old LOL

 

Well I don’t build Chevys but so far I haven’t found what is so much more about building a Hemi compared to anything else. I must just be lucky.

 

Stock adjustable rockers aren't the be-all end-all for these engines. The only problem I have had with the engine in my dirt car (avatar) was a broken exhaust rocker. A little research yielded the fact that they are a weak point in these engines. I lucked out and found a set of Donovan forged exhaust rockers. The are non-adjustable, so I have a set of adjustable pushrods. Adjusting the valves is a bit of a chore which is helped by having a couple of oddly bent wrenches.

 

Those things were used EVERYWHERE!
Setting the valves on this one very often a guy better have some good legs!

I had Booster Dewey here in Portland rebuild a power brake booster for me, this Chrysler powered air raid siren must have been in his back yard in the 50's, 54th and Boise st.


View attachment 6284161

 

Again the machine work is comparable to a point .
A hemi is likely going to need a about $800 in rocker arm and shaft rebuild work a SBC or SBF and other non shaft type assembles dont need . Thats the cost right there of some short block rebuilds. You can buy an assembled rebult short block for around $1100 with a block included in some cases .

Again its the parts and then the after market performance bolt ons.
A new sbc intake ( likely Chinese is a bout $100 ) A aluminum Hemi intake ( Im looking now ) Your lucy if you find a used Wieand for $500 since they quit making them . Any thing coolr or the HH options is much much more .

Chevy 350 1969-1980 Engine Master Kit - Northern Auto Parts
$399 for everything ( If your valves are good ) minus the machine work with a $30 or so cam upgrade option and oil pump option and such.
So with a bored / machined block ( about $350 ) ground crank ( 150?) and good heads I can literally have a rebuilt SBC for $850 -$1000. Thats new pistons, cam , all bearings , gaskets on so on . Just a set of Ebay 331 hem gaskets are about $390 with no parts yet and there cheap stuff likely

Just a set a set of pistons to get my compression up to 9.5-1 is damn near $1000 for a 331 .

were taking a 350 chevy vortec roller block in for machine work this week Ill let you now what the bill will be . ( its been 5 years since I last did one ) the parts a have doubled on much of the stuff . theat norhern kit used to be $199 last time I got one.

I figure IF and big if my 331 is a usable running as is engine ( working on a run stand today still) ill have
at least and additional $700 in a intake , $300 in a pretty timing cover, $600 in cam and lifters push rods , another $150 or so in a water pump and SBC adapters or stock , $50 or so in a oil filter adapter and lets say $1100 for a trans adapter with fly wheel and starter to put a stick shift on it . that's about $3000 in just stuff to make it look ok and run well. then you got motor mounts and a likely a distributor and such so lets say Im looking at just $3500 on a already running stock engine to just bolt it in with a cam change that looks presentable in a budgit car build and then there is the exhaust . I can litterlay build two SBC or SBF for just the cost of making a stock running 331 Hemi hot rod material.

Now I could make a log intake for $150 , no cam and run the stock 1954 two speed trans as is with maybe a $250 cast iron 4BB 100 pound manifold or what ever it weighs and have about 190 HP from about 1100 pounds of engine and trans But hey its a hemi id be cool )

Ill see if mine runs and then if it does ill start looking for a intake but IMO a 331 is not worth $5000-$10,000 extra because it look cool if it only makes 300HP or so after a build

The real question should be IF the OP's engine is rebuildable whats the real cost to do such a rebuild with a decent compression ratio piston , a decent cam and all the stuff to make it look good in a build ?? The cost of the core Hemi to build is the cheapest part almost

 

That's a early 331 with extended block for a bell housing.
undesirable heads ( want 1954 or later ) 2bbl intake . Unless you can hear it run for that $1000 there are better choices to sink $5000 on up into before its what you want . IMO . The trans adapter and trans is a nice feature and worth about half the asking price is guess .

My cut off was a the short bell 331 from 1954 on up unless it was a proven usable as is engine . I wanted a 354 ( or 392 thats ahrd to find ) with good heads and the water cross over but i ended up with a 331 with out the cross over heads .

 

Ok. Everyone that doesn’t want to build an early Hemi due to cost can let me know. I’m happy too.

 

It's more like what one needs to consider before running out and buying a questionable Hemi they don't know anything about it or what to expect .

If your sinking say $7000 into a engine then maybe start with a 392 or something more worthwhile when done.
I'll need about $1000 just for 331 pistons and that's just the very beginning.
Will be cool when done but on a truck maybe worth $25,000 total one has to be mindful what he's getting into . A Hemi will not add to the value it costs to it likely .

It better be the right vehicle to justify the investment. There is a balance .

A $300 Hemi core that needs huge money to build its likely to never get done by many .
I know of three were guys had big dreams untill reality set in .
One a 392 I'd like to buy but he says he will build it someday. He is 85 near blind and broke . Scrap guy will likely get it before me.

No disrespect intended.

 

You’re absolutely right. My apologies.

 

Here's my guess: The Marine and Industrial engines were both made on the non-automotive line so for simplicity used the same covers.

 

Except they say marine or industrial, so not same covers, unless it was an accounting gimmick to reduce cost of the 300 and marine covers by putting useless dimple covers on the ind. engines, increasing the number of blanks created.

 

Accounting gimmicks certainly can't be discounted.
I wonder if the dimples were put on in a separate, earlier operation from that of the lettering, and the I&M versions sourced from the same stack?

It is pretty esoteric historical trivia, but the detailed history of these engines is interesting for early Hemi enthusiasts like us.

 

A comment made by @73RR was something to the effect of "who knows why Mother Mopar did the things that she did".

 

Supposedly Garlits said that going from the 392 to the BB engines was done to save $30 an engine. Spreading the cost of the dimples over all of the truck covers would have significantly reduced the cost vs just 300 and Industrial engines that would have way fewer made.

 

$30 per engine in 1958 or 59 was a huge amount for a mass production auto maker.

 

The Original Chrysler Hemi Engine

This article (link below) is a good historical but lengthy read, should be well worth it for the hemi crowd.



Here:

https://www.allpar.com/threads/the-original-chrysler-hemi-engine.229931/

 

From that article
"or 1956, the 331 cylinders were bored out 0.130 of an inch, to expand cubic inches to 354.06. Compression was raised in an altered set of heads to 9.0:1. The exhaust manifolds were changed. Overall, the 300B gained a rated horsepower of 340; a dealer-installed, optional set of heads bumped the compression ratio to 10.0 : 1 and gave the 300B a 355 horsepower rating. It also made it the first production engine to exceed one horsepower per cubic inch. Chrysler wasted no time to point that out."

What were these alterations in the 1956 heads to get 9.0:1 compression ????
what are the dealer installed heads numbers . I thought all the early heads gave about the same compression is there 56 heads that give more than the 54 332 and the 55 354 heads do ??

I ask as I have a 1954 331 and I thought those heads were decent and not that much different other than the water cross over of the latter heads ?

I guess I need to go back in the archives and read more .

 

'55 & '56 heads had bigger valves. There are no heads listed as being only for the 300, the 300 having solid cam & dual quads. There is a part number for heads made for Cunningham, maybe some were snagged by dealers. Don't know details on them.