Hey I dont know what to call the technique Im looking to do but its something like this.. A panel like this is what Im shooting for. Example would be having an irregular shaped bracket and instead of just bolting it to the sheet metal, the outline of the bracket is sunk into the metal so the bracket has a little home so to speak. Other times have large raised areas Im real curious how this is done and if it can be done without a massive investment in tools. I thought about maybe routing hard wood to make a male and female die but hoped that maybe theres a more free form way to do it. Im sure this technique is far from new but I really would like to do it. Beats the hell out of regular bead rolling.
Aside from stamping...isn't it done with just a bead roller and a 90 degree curve (quarter circle) die?
I dunno, is it? I know how to put a full bead into a panel but making a big raised panel I figured took something else.. maybe not. Like I said I dont know but Id like to do it without stamping it.
You can us a bead roller with a steping die for the raised part. Mit not step it that much. But would be close.
i stamped these. http://recycled40fordwoodie.blogspot.com/2008/11/impressive.html which has less shape but is basically the same idea.. my die is wood.. with a maple ply backer.. to which I backed the stack with 1/4 inch steel plate and then c clamped the mess to a 2 inch thick maple topped table. I have to do this again soon.. on something larger.. i believe theres another process called reposee?
Sawzall has the right idea, but large complicated patterns can be done by working the pattern with mallets instead of relying on clamps.
that looks like what I was thinking and the result is the same. Iguess Ill have to make dies out of wood for any little pieces I may wanna make. More time consuming but you cant argue with the finished product.
I've done shallow embossing with an English wheel. I cut the pattern out of sheet stock and put it on opposite sides of the panel. Use a flat roller and slowly emboss it working a little at a time. You can get very crisp corners (or even flame tips) using this method. EDIT: After thinking about this a little - if it were me - I'd cut a pattern out of some very hard wood or some 3/8" or so thick aluminum. I'd make it 2 pieces. The "dropout" would probably get just enough clearance with the kerf of the blade, but a wee bit extra won't hurt anything and will help with the deeper offsets. In "inner" piece would have a radius on the edge to duplicate the radius seen in the pic. The "outside" piece would also be profile cut so that it would become the buck so you could hammer form that outside lip right against the edge - the reason I suggested using the thicker aluminum. Looks like a fun project.
Kent White does something similar that he calls "Flow Forming", where he routes/carves the female portion of the die, and then just makes a clamp ring for the upper surface. You clamp your piece of sheet metal between the two dies and then proceed to "flow form" the steel into the female die using a modified rivet gun with a forming head attached (instead of the rivet buck). This lets you get a little better detail than is possible if you use wood for the male die (the rivet gun is essentially the male die when flow forming), because you can concentrate the full working force right in the small corners, where the male part of the wood die would normally crush down (reducing the applied force, and thus the definition of the form created). For stuff that needs good sharp inside corners or that has complicated internal shapes, your best bet is flow forming. For stuff that has generous radii at the step and inside the corners, you can get by with using the male wood form, or even the clamp ring and a mallet. You have to clamp the exterior edges of the material (either via the outer portion of the male die touching down first, or by the clamp ring when flow forming), so that you stretch the material to make the shape. Otherwise, it'll wrinkle and pucker at the corners and where the width changes. Bad juju. Clamp it good and tight before you start, and you'll be fine.
Im gonna look into the "flow forming" sounds like it may be faster to start working on metal as opposed to making wood dies for male and female sides. Is there any pics of finished panels you may be able to share?
It is, built by Detroit Speed. They do alot of the raised paneling in their custom builds and that particular detailing caught my eye. They do it to floor boards and firewalls as well as core supports ect ect. The fab they do is really nice and Id like to be able to do a few of the things they do.
i didnt relize that was their product,just recognized the shape of the heater box,but one of my clients has purchased about everything they (destroit speed)offer from their 4 link mini tub rear end kit to their 7k front subframe,billet rad supports along with the 2k ring brothers taillights,,,, ..oh well...ill have built 2 cars and a bike,for the same price(if not cheaper)and by the time he finishes his camaro hahaha...
The easiest way to make that panel is with a bead roller. You need two sets of dies, one to do the offset for the raised section and the second is a tipping wheel upper die and a urethane lower for the slight bead on the outer edge. Make the panel blank bigger than needed by about 1/2" form the raised section then the outside detail. Trim to size and punch the holes where needed.
yeah their parts are f'n expensive, WAYYY expensive. Guess you can ask that with name recognition. Granted the quality is bar none but still... Sounds like you got a pro touring guy in the shop who has aspirations of going to SEMA and/or proving that a big wallet makes up for a small something or rather lol. Regardless Im gonna experiment with some different ways of doing this. I think Ill start with the plywood method and try out the flow form thing if I dont get the results I want. The big concern I have with doing larger size impressions in evenly pressing the metal. May have to get a few bottle jacks to spred the load evenly. Guys, thanks as always.
Making the wood dies will be less time consuming than Repouse, and you'll get a cleaner job. Repouse requires a lot more skill and effort to get all the hammer marks out once the shape is formed. What's the problem with spending an hour or so making a two piece die? Once the dies are made the pressing takes a few minutes and you get a (almost perfect) product.
Go here to read what Kent says about it: https://www.tinmantech.com/html/flow_forming_set.php# I don't own a set of his, but I've got them on my "shit I still need to build" list. I've seen in a video he did where he stretched a small blister fairing into an MDF die, and I've seen him turn flanges with it a lot. The slick part about it (IMO at least) is that you can choose the durometer of the forming face such that it doesn't mark the material. That saves you having to work out all the tool marks with a spoon or similar device once the bulk forming is done. It's a process that is proven to work. The biggest time consumer with doing a die set (male and female) is getting them to stay aligned and getting the die to produce exactly the shape you're after. Remember, the shape you put into a crash die (which is what we're talking about here) is not necessarily the shape you get reproduced into the sheetmetal. That means that if you have to have a specific shape of a specific size, it takes several iterations where you squeeze a part and then check it and squeeze another one, with much "die tuning" in between tries before you get a usable piece. Since you form all at once with a crash die, you have to work on the shape of the male half to get it to apply pressure where you want it. Just cutting a hole in some plywood and gluing the drop-out onto another board to use as the male die isn't going to cut it if you are shooting for an exact shape and size. Doing it that way will form the metal, it just won't exactly reproduce the female die. With flow forming, you make the female die (or buck, or form, or whatever you want to call it) exactly the shape you want the panel to be, and that's it. Because you can work the material one specific area at a time, you delete the entire "die tuning" phase. You just work the sheet until it complies with the mold. This is how I'm going to build my floor pan and trans tunnel panels and probably the rust repair panels I need as well (when I get that far) for my '36.
kent whites "flow forming.. looks like (to me) a fancy hammer.. my wooden DIE. was made in half's.. add to that that the inside, became the outside.. and was really very simple to create.. I dont have an hour in it.. The Kerf of my bandsaw created appropriate clearance for the die set.. ps search on here for hammer form..
This guy (below) flat knows what he is talking about. For others ideas you can go to that website in hispost. Another Hamb'r that does quite a bit of embossing/pressing is ElPolacko. To do a one-of might be timeconsuming and Joe considered this when he suggested the beadroller.
That could also be done with a tipping die in a bead roller. Several passes for each bend exerting upward pressure on the metal. Do the first bend then flip the part over and do the second bend. John
It is, more or less. But it seems to work pretty damned well. Making the die like you did works very well to just press some shape into the metal, but if you need a specific accurate shape (IE, some specific dimension that you have to hit within a 1/16"), you will not get there in one shot. The panel could certainly be done with a bead roller, but that process (IMO at least) requires more skill than doing it with a die or hammer form, especially tipping the flange around the edge, 'cause you'll need to make several passes, and they've all got to be in the right place. Many ways to skin this cat. The real question is, what're ya gonna do with the meat?
I would form the raised portion of this panel with a Pullmax nibbler. The raised portion results from forming the entire perimeter to the desired shape. The edge break detail could also be done on a Pullmax with rather simple tooling as well as other types of machines. The very small radius of part of the break detail will limit some machines and may have to be accomplished by hand.
Hey guys, Im really not looking to make this part in particular, just was a picture I could repost that illustrated what I was shooting for heres a more defined pic of what they did for another car. if you look you can see where they sunk in the spots for the AC bulkhead and a round roll cage down bar flange. As well as the big raised section for aesthetics. I dont want to do THIS^^^ Just would like to have the abilty to do this for certain parts that are seen. In particular is flushing in bulkheads and brackets. I like the finished look of having piece all having a home. Even a firewall mounted Master cylinder looks more finished when the flange is flush with the firewall as opposed to just being bolted on. For me its a detail thing, I personally think what they did is way over done but it clearly shows what I want to learn.
Check this out man. I'd PM some of these guys to find out what they did. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144995&highlight=bead+rolling Hope this gives you some solid know-how.
yep I guess it can be done with a bead roller. Never thought it could be done for large panels like that. I have only done stiffening beads, never thought it could be used for round impressions or for really small stuff. My main goals right now are to flush in a Vintage Air AC bulk head, master cylinder flange and a wiper motor. I just couldnt figure out how to do cigarette back sized impressions like that with a bead roller. Possibly a mixture of both bead roller and the male/female die pressing depending on the size and complexity.
There is usually more that one way to make a shape in a panel. It depends on what tools you have and what your skill level is. Before you can really be successful in shaping metal you have to know what the metal is going to do when you apply force to it. A bead roller is a very powerful tool and with the right design and correct dies you can do a lot of different shapes. The biggest problem with most bead rollers is that the throat is not tall enough to run a panel through with much shape in it. Several people are working on designs to solve this problem including me. Many times small panel are made and then welded into a larger panel to produce the final product that you want. Most large panels with a lot of shape are not made in one piece unless it is done in a stamping press. I would suggest that if you want to learn more about shaping sheet metal join us at AllMetalShaping.com There are a lot of talented people there willing to share their knowledge and help you with your projects. There are a few very good DVD available that will help you learn the basic old school techniques of shaping sheet metal with hand tools.
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