Environment 101: Hot rod vs. hybrid: which is more environmentally friendly?

I found this older article while searching for something else. Frankly, this guy's article makes him sound like a self-righteous windbag, too. Please don't get all worked up into a dramatic lather.

http://www.examiner.com/classic-car...hybrid-which-is-more-environmentally-friendly

Here's the text for prosperity:

Environment 101: Hot rod vs. hybrid: which is more environmentally friendly?

We all have encountered the concerned guy or gal who insists that everything we do different from them is bad for poor mother earth. Whether it is eating meat or using deodorant, we are sticking it to the environment every time we take a breath, so says your local vegan windbag.

Yes, there are more than a few veggies that appreciate classic cars and realize all of the recycling and conservation of resources that is involved in owning them, but there are too many out there that scowl from the windows of their cheese wedge-shaped hybrids when an old car comes rumbling next to them at a stoplight. “Ugh, that is so bad for the environment, driving that gas guzzler. They should all be crushed and forced to drive hybrids like me,” the enviro-hipster thinks to herself with a smug smile on her face.


But are hybrids really better for the environment than hot rods? Are hot rodders really environmentalists without all of the pushy, passive aggressive self-righteousness?


Before we get started, I want to make one thing clear: I don’t want people to ditch new cars for classics in any way shape or form. Most people should drive appliance-mobiles and leave taking care of the old guys to us, but the point is we are less environmentally destructive than your average anti-car nut might think. Now, let the hot rod and hybrid enter the ring and do battle!


Use of raw materials: Even if a classic car is stripped to the bone and every moving part is replaced, the interior gutted and it is fully repainted, pound-for-pound less new raw materials will be used to rebuild it than it takes to build a new car. Even when the materials that were used to build the car in the first place are taken into consideration, there just isn’t much to the classic car when compared to the hybrid. There are no computers and only basic wiring for lights, ignition, charging system and maybe a basic stereo. A single lead-acid battery provides the juice for starting. Plastics are used pretty sparingly for trim, gauge clusters and carpeting. Safety equipment comes in the form of four foot-long webs of nylon. Exterior trim is all steel, and fairly basic. Emissions systems are nearly non-existent.


In the hybrid you have a pile of computers, control modules for every system, electric motors for propulsion, windows and locks, complex gauges, LCD screens and audio equipment, and hundreds of pounds of wiring to connect it all together. The car is scooted along with the assistance of a large nickel metal hydride battery. Plastics are used extensively inside and outside of the car, and it takes over 100 gallons of oil to make the plastics for an average new car, according to lifescience.com. Safety equipment comes in the form of multiple airbags and seatbelt pretensioners, which consists of accelerometers, impact sensors, gyroscopes, gas generators and more control units and wiring. All of these accessories are made with materials like gold, lead, platinum, palladium and many other materials that are very sparse or not used at all in a classic car.


Before this gets too boring, a lot more new raw materials go into building a new car than the hot rod, even considering that the hot rod is almost built twice if it is restored. Remember to take into consideration that many parts in a restoration are repaired or remanufactured. Winner: Hot Rod

Emissions: OK, there is not much of a fight here or need for lengthy explanation. Old cars just don’t have any of those pesky emissions controls. While a well-tuned muscle car—even without emissions controls—can turn some impressive numbers on the sniffer (I used to be a smog inspector, I’ve seen it) it just can’t compare to the near-zero numbers that today’s catalyzed engines can achieve. Winner: Hybrid

Recyclability: Given the complex nature of new cars it is very difficult to separate all its components into easily recyclable raw materials. Then consider all of the stuff that just isn’t readily recyclable like automotive plastics and upholstery. Removing nuts and bolts can separate the components of older cars (as most components aren’t integrated to the extent that they are on new cars) and tossing the steel, aluminum, glass, rubber and plastic into separate bins. More importantly, most of the recycling involved with hot rods and classics involves keeping most of the car and its parts on the road. In any restoration, many remanufactured parts are used, parts that can’t be used are shared with others and existing components are rebuilt and reused. If reuse is not the spirit of environmentalism, I don’t know what is. Winner: Hot Rod

Durability: Two words give up the crown: Planned obsolescence. That fancy new Prius is not designed to last more than 10 years, and even if it was, good luck fixing it after that. Auto manufacturers purposely stop making most replacement parts for your car as soon as its production run ends, and others even destroy surplus parts after a given period of time, making new cars impossible to repair a decade down the line. Of course, this is so you will buy more cars and keep them in business. Given modern-day cash for clunkers incentives, there will also be a severe shortage of used parts even further down the line. In 2025, it will be impossible to repair today’s cars at all if the manufacturers have anything to do with it. Add all this up and you have 96% of cars made today headed for the wrecking yard 20 years down the line. The only reason this is not 100% is there are some cars with a healthy aftermarket and strong market value like the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, and Toyota Scion, and to an extent, some Honda Civic models that are popular sport compact modder cars. Winner: Hot Rod

Fuel efficiency: This one has to be handed over to the hybrid for obvious reasons, but there are ways to make a classic get pretty decent mileage that can even reach the 35+ mpg zone. With the use of overdrive transmissions and modern fuel injection technology that is readily available for retrofitting, the fuel mileage of a light and lithe classic can be quite impressive, but still won’t match the mileage of something that is half powered by batteries. And no, you shouldn’t put electric motors in a classic for anything but the windows, so it ain’t gonna happen. Sorry Willie. Winner: Hybrid

The conclusion of this completely scientific and legitimate study is: Hot rods are the environmental king, winning the battle 3-2! I think that classic car lovers will continue to get haircuts, eat steaks and use deodorant, but we’ll also keep doing our part to be nice to the planet without being smug about it.

 

Dig up an older article on dropped axles, or spring behind rears, or friction shocks or multi carb induction or something else. Please.

 

Much like any group, environmentalist get a bad rap from the loudest, smallest, segment of the " group " most are reasonable thinking people. Many of us are educated in earth sciences A lot of us enjoy this hobby, and understand the minimal impact we have overall, and the offset that restoration makes.
Same thing with the hot rod crowd. Most of us, thats right, I fit in to both categories, are intelligent, rational, people. Few want to destroy our environment. But the loudest voices generally come from the most ignorant ( on both sides). If we want to keep doing what were doing we'd better make an effort to learn and understand the other side of the issue. The general population could care less about us, the extremest on both sides of the argument are the ones that can hurt us.
OK off my soap box, back to hot rods.......

 

Yeah he raises a lot of good points. I always share my story of seeing 3-4 Priuses (Priusi?) broken down on my way back to SF from Viva this year and only one old car. ONE.

 

I read an article a few years back about how a prius owner would have to drive his car 15k every year for 47 years to have it pay off its carbon foot print. That was only in consideration for the original batteries, no replacement. I honestly dont see too many plastic pieces of shit making it much past 20 years of service.

47 years.....

 

I whole-heartedly disagree with the above statement. What's wrong with an electric "traditonal" rod or custom. Besides my own battery powered "classic", I know of several others in existence. One is a radical "T" roadster pickup, albeit with a 'glass body and homemade frame. Others are in the process of converting post-war Chev and Ford pickups. Many others are doing post-war British cars and "classic" VWs.

If you're going to to do an engine swap or custom bodywork, whats to stop you from playing around with an alternative powertrain. As long as the battery pack will serve your personal needs, what's the problem? Research has shown that more that many more than 50% of Americans (and Europeans, etc.) drive fewer than 40 miles per day. That mileage figure is well within the reach of most homemade electric cars using simple lead-acid batteries. If you can afford lithium-ion batteries, 100 miles per charge, and more, can be had. I live in midtown and, with few exceptions, could do all of my daily driving, car shows, and swap meets in my Met without having to put any fuel in my current daily driver. Going to Phoenix is another story, but that's what the wife's car is for.

Besides, on a pension, who the hell can afford a hybrid? My budget calls for a maximum of $8,800 for my entire build with all chassis mods, bodywork, interior, forklift motor, batteries, controller, and paint. And remember-an electric motor gives full torque at 0 rpm. That means lots of tire smoke with push of the pedal.

I'll step off my soapbox now and don my nomex. Thanks for listening.

Mike

 

We drove a hybrid SUV at the Toyota dealer and I asked the salesman what kind of highway mileage it would get. He said about 34 miles per gallon. That just about what my mother in laws 2001 Buick LeSabre gets. LOL
V/8

 

Exactly! These things barely get any better economy than a car does. The big deal is that in city driving, stop and go, the electric battery is far more efficient. Then again, so is riding the bus, or taking a bike, or getting a scooter. If people took the time to really think this stuff out there'd be very few of those overpriced plastic toys being sold, just my opinion.

P.S. all that electricity they gobble, it comes from places like hydroelectric dams. There's nothing funnier than seeing protestors along the Columbia River calling the dams salmon killers, when those same idiots arrive in electric or hybrid cars!

I guess that what it really says is that education doesn't sell, advertising does. Maybe we should all gang up and start buying commercial time to praise the ecology of the Hot Rodder.

 

If the the majority of our electricity came from a clean, efficient and renewable source, electric cars would make sense.

Unfortunately, the majority of our electricity is generated by burning fuel oil or coal (fossil fuels). Fuel is burned to create heat to boil water to create steam to turn a tubine to generate electricty. That electricity then passes through hundreds of miles of cable to homes so it can be used to charge the battery in an electric car. Energy is lost in each one of these steps.

When an electric car is driven, most of the energy is used to move the weight of the battery. Look at the old GM EV1, that car weighed more than my '63 Impala, yet could only carry two people, a briefcase ans maybe a sack lunch. Very little payload.

At the present time, electric cars only serve to make people feel good about themselves. No real benifit.

 

Depends where you live. Were mostly hydroelectric. Wind is coming on so strong they have to shut down the generators at times because the grid can't handle it.
I want an electric. I'll have one, just waiting for one that doesn't look like a pod. Thinking about building a electric hot rod, but don't know if I'll live long enough to finish the crap I have!
There is no one answer, lots of little ones. Personally I don't think much of hybrids, but there getting better. There just a step till we develop other better alternatives.

 

Don't get sucked into the pointless us vs them propagandizing. Plenty of 'car people' own hybrids, and also consider themselves environmentalists.

Do point out to the uninitiated that maintaining old cars can be very environmentally conscious.

 

Another little tidbit about coal generated electrical power: some coal powered plants have their coal shipped in by train car. The plant in Centralia, Wa. gets all of its coal from Virginia, it's cheaper for them to ship it than to harvest the coal that is right there besides the plant! So that electricity consumes a lot of resources being produced.

Wind power is great, but it's sporadic. Hydroelectric is wonderful, from an electrical point of view, but it does have an impact on the fish, to what degree no one will agree. Solar takes a large amount of raw material resources for a very limited return. I guess the bottom line is that electricity is not going to be the big savior of automobiles unless a newer, better generating technology comes along.

(Personally, I'd love to have an electric motorcycle/trike)

 

your vision of a hotrod is pretty narrow. what about fiberglass bodies? what about the 1 800 catalog builders building with new parts instead of recycling old parts? what about the chrome used on hotrods?

 

Thanks for the open-mindedness. Anybody who is involved in a politically-charged hobby can be said to making themselves feel better about themselves. We are ALL involved in a very politically charged hobby--HOT RODDING. We should all be concerned with how the rest of the world perceives our hobby. Lets face it, the uninitiated masses are going to regulating our ability to enjoy our private property.

Steps down again and re-dons nomex and flame suit.

Mike

 

Yep, ever seen the Killacycle? WAY OT but wicked!

 

The Centralia plant is being phased out. I understood that they were mining coal close to the plant?. And yes hydro has its impact. Few things are free of impact. We need to experiment and do the R & D. unfortunately as a country, we don't seem to change unless forced to.
We had an electric motorcycle at our car show. Didn't get to ride it but it was fast. the lack of noise was weird. Our alternative fuel class is the fastest growing class in our little show. Of course there are a lot of hippies up here in the north west

 

Agree 100%. Don't need to be an either or kind of argument. We have a Prius and a Scion as well as my 2 old trucks. I drive either whenever I want and don't care what anyone else thinks. Love driving my old trucks and the one that runs is converted to run on propane mostly because my wife wasn't big on gasoline smells. But the old trucks aren't too family friendly and just can't hang for everyday situations.

I can live with that. Nice driving the Prius too for long trips knowing I'm not forking over anymore of our hard earned cash to the blood sucking oil companies than is absolutely necessary. And for all of you Prius haters, they are actually damn nice family cars too despite getting 45-50 mpg and they aren't all the expensive either. Say what you want, but that is the fact. I tried to actually buy something else to haul the crew around in specifically because I didn't want to get a Prius, but decided it was pretty darn hard to beat for what it is. And yes, the batteries are recyclable just like many of the other part of it. I don't plan on tossing them into the SF Bay when we're done with the car. Side note, yes it is a Japanese made car, when a US car maker starts making a car the is a good as the Prius, then I'll be one of the first to go check it out. And save it, no the Volt doesn't cut it either, for either cost or economy.

Is it more environmentally friendly than my old trucks? Hard to tell and frankly don't care. It's and old truck that now runs on propane and don't use it that much and it's never even been restored, so probably pretty decent to the earth overall. Plus the Prius sucks for hauling sheets of plywood and a yard of gravel, so not much choice.

I'm cool with both and sleep pretty well at night not worrying about it too much. We have kids, and they need a decent future so we do what we can within sensible reason to try to take care of the environment. Despite what people might think, it doesn't hurt to burn a little less gas or pick up some trash off the ground every once in a while. Personally, I haven't found it really to be that much to ask of myself.

 

I read this a while ago. Hot rodders are the bad asses of environmentalist

 

As far as I knew the plant was still going strong, they just shut down the mining side, that's what was going on at least as of last June when we moved the hell out of there!

The Killacycle is insane! I'm thinking more along the lines of a cruiser though, this fat ass and beat up body just wants to cruise, speed is fun but the ride is the real deal. I remember how much I could hear when I used to ride my old Suzuki 450, I'm stoked about the total silence thing!

Okay, back on topic, Tinbender, you're right, as a country we're pretty lethargic when it comes to change. If there was no gas crisis (for whatever) reason there would be no push towards efficient vehicles.

I think the bigger question is how we get our vehicles from now on. The Industrial Revolution is well and over, the Digital Revolution is peaking, maybe, just maybe, having our cars produced en masse is a thing of the past? Maybe the future belongs to cottage industry builders. There are lots of these type of manufacturers around today, as the political and social climate continues to change, perhaps these folks will be the ones to benefit, not the industrially complex and bloated manufacturers who've sat at the table for so long that they no longer realize it's OUR table, and they are just guests.

 

Yeah, the legislature just voted to shut it down.
I hope this change in energy use and production helps small start up companies. I'm getting contacted by small companies on a regular basis asking about training in composites, and plastics. There are several shops doing electric conversions in the area. Things are changing, but in my opinion far too slow.

 

Sounds like you have "hot rods" confused with "street rods".
V/8

 

Newsflash!The planet doesn't give a fuck as it will still be here long after our annoying little species becomes extinct. Come to think of it, I don't give a fuck either. Anyone got some nice pictures of old hot rods and customs?
Paul

 

Are you sure about the haircuts & deodorant bit????

 

Try living in Vancouver. Most of them are assholes.

 

^^^I'm not familiar with people in Vancouver, but I suspect they are like most anybody anywhere else on this planet, once you get to know them they all of a sudden seem a lot more like yourself with pretty similar ideas on life overall, but maybe just a slightly different perspective. Percentage-wise, there are likely just as many a-hole hot rodders in Vancouver as there are environmentalists and vice versa.

 

That sounds about right.

 

Well, you can put me down as an asshole hot rodder...

 

Funny, I DO know a few "enviromentalists". I find I have virtually nothing in common with them, for one, I own modified vehicles, work on cars, and love cars,they play a central role in my life. They generally do none of the above, look down on anyone for whom cars play a central role in their life, and consider them poor, pathetic,ignorant, shallow, lost souls who need to be shown the light, preferably through political action, and thier life is primarily centered on forcing others to conform to thier political dogma, as they know whats best for the rest of us.
Perhaps YOU have a lot in common with enviromentalists. That being the case, you clearly have very little in common with me, so please speak for yourself.

 

the all electric car will eventually take over the world but wont be accepted by the general public until it has the range of a gas car and can be charged as quickly as we fuel one now, and thats the bottom line!!!!

 

I will speak for myself as I always have. First, I'm thinking you need to take a hard look in the mirror. Sounds to me like you have a pretty big chip on your shoulders and are also the one to go around trash talking, looking down on others, telling them how they should live, etc. Life's a 2 way street brother, not just your way. But that's your problem to deal with not mine.

If you want to go ahead and volunteer to be an honorary asshole hot rodder, fine. You're certainly not reinventing the wheel. Be my guest, I don't give a damn. Do whatever the hell you want. I stopped worrying about that kind of petty shit a long time ago.