After emailing the epa on the proposal increase ethanol in gasoline. I finally got a response. I wanted to share this response with you. And hopefully notify any one who doesn't know if it. I have the proposal document if u want that feel free to email me. The current limit on the amount of ethanol that can be blended into a gallon of gasoline is at ten volume percent ethanol (E10) for conventional (non flex-fuel) vehicles. Growth Energy and 54 ethanol manufacturers submitted an application to EPA on March 6, 2009 which requested a waiver from EPA to allow the use of 15 volume percent ethanol in conventional (non-flexible fuel) vehicles. The statutory provision calls for EPA to make a decision on the waiver request within 270 days of receipt, which is December 1, 2009. The original public comment period was to end on May 21, 2009, and will now end on July 20, 2009. The comment period extension will not change the timeframe for EPA to make a decision. The directions for how to comment on the notice that EPA published in response to the application from Growth Energy which requested a waiver from EPA to allow the use of 15 volume percent ethanol in conventional (non-flexible fuel) vehicles are contained in the notice itself. Below is an except from the notice which describes how to submit comments and a copy of the notice. Please refer to the notice for a full discussion regarding the submission of comments. Best Regards (See attached file: E15FRNotice4-21-09.pdf) Submit your comments, identified by Docket ID No. EPAHQ OAR20090211, by one of the following methods: http://www.regulations.gov: Follow the on-line instructions for submitting comments. E-mail: a-and-r-docket@epa.gov. Fax: (202) 5661741. Mail: Air and Radiation Docket, Docket ID No. EPAHQOAR2009 0211, Environmental Protection Agency, Mailcode: 6102T, 1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW., Washington, DC 20460. Please include a total of two copies. Hand Delivery: EPA Docket Center, Public Reading Room, EPA West Building, Room 3334, 1301 Constitution Avenue, NW., Washington, DC 20460. Such deliveries are only accepted during the Dockets normal hours of operation, and special arrangements should be made for deliveries of boxed information. Instructions: Direct your comments to Docket ID No. EPAHQOAR2009 0211. EPAs policy is that all comments received will be included in the public docket without change and may be made available online at http:// www.regulations.gov, including any personal information provided, unless the comment includes information claimed to be Confidential Business Information (CBI) or other information whose disclosure is restricted by statute. Do not submit information that you consider to be CBI or otherwise protected through http:// www.regulations.gov or e-mail. The http://www.regulations.gov Web site is an anonymous access system, which means EPA will not know your identity or contact information unless you provide it in the body of your comment. If you send an e-mail comment directly to EPA without going through http:// www.regulations.gov, your e-mail address will be automatically captured and included as part of the comment that is placed in the public docket and made available on the Internet. If you submit an electronic comment, EPA recommends that you include your name and other contact information in the body of your comment and with any disk or CDROM you submit. If EPA cannot read your comment due to technical difficulties and cannot contact you for clarification, EPA may not be able to consider your comment. Electronic files should avoid the use of special characters, any form of encryption, and be free of any defects or viruses. For additional information about EPAs public docket visit the EPA Docket Center homepage at http:// www.epa.gov/epahome/dockets.htm. Jeff Herzog, Mechanical Engineer U.S. EPA National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory Assessment and Standards Division 2000 Traverwood Drive, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 48105 (734) 214-4227 Fax: (734) 214-4816 herzog.jeff@epa.gov
I was just recently at a training update with Stihl for their power equipment and they said they have not been able to get any of their equipment to run above 12% ethanol. Several other equipment manufacturers have the same problem. They would have to change carbs/jetting and timing. That may relate somewhat to our hotrods but those alterations are fairly easily handled. The biggest problem I have at work is fuel phase seperation when it becomes saturated with water. The ethanol attracts the mositure from the air so quickly with just 10% I dread what it will be like with 15%.
time for a little more compression and ignition timing. water expands 1600 times it size when turned to steam, so it has plenty of energy.
Look for real shitty gas mileage and poor performance. Flow rate of ethanol and gasoline are two different animals in the same cage and don't fit. The use of 10% ethanol has cost American consumers close to 5 million miles a day loss. If they allow this to continue to 15% look for additional lost miles. Our personal loss has averaged 90 miles per tank (14 gallons). We went to http://www.fpc1.com/index.htm and it has brought up our mileage to acceptable MPG increase. FPC is also a sponsor of NASCAR and I have started using it in my street rods for better performance and mileage and it really works. Since all major cities have to use this crap the regular gas (non ethanol )is still available in the small towns a couple of counties away.
Further, I wonder what will be the impact of another 5% on fuel pump diaphragms, synthetic fuel lines, and accelerator pump pistons. I've already experienced premature (like in less than a week) failure of pump pistons that Echlin claimed were good for 15 %. If existing fuel is really limited to 10% ( Here in Indiana the pumps are no longer labelled as to ethanol content) then I guess I had a bigger gripe that I thought I did. I didn't argue with them (Echlin)- I found some leather cupped pistons and cured the problem.
It means ya gotta have bigger jets. The problem is that there are still gas stations that sell real gasoline if you leave your neighborhood and don't know which ones it is you may happen to buy gasoline, so if you've set it to run well on gasahol you run fat.
Vehicles with carbs can always be fiddled with to run on a slightly higher Ethanol content in the fuel.Hey,we modify engines all the time. The majority of vehicles on the road are 1990 and newer with electronic fuel injection.I'm thinking the engine management systems in most newer engines won't be able to deal with higher than the current 10 percent alcohol.It appears that every owners manual of newer vehicles says no more than 10 percent alcohol in the fuel.Otherwords,they know high alcohol content will mean a shit load drivability complaints and maybe warranty issues. I sent in my complaint to the above gov't form.If you spend time reading ,you'll see those who want more alcohol are corn growers.That's expected cause farmers need to make money.The rest are talking heads who have no idea what the consequences are.
I gotta worry about all the soft parts in the fuel system. My buddy is a tech at dealership, he said they make good money on cars when the owners think they can use e85.
So by adding more ethanol, I lose milage, so I have to go out and buy and use more gasoline? I mean.. if I lose 10% of my milage, so say normally I get 20 MPG, with 10 gallons I go 180 miles instead of 200. So I have to buy 1.1 more gallons to go the full 200 miles. That means I use the same amount of actual gasoline content (9.99 galons), but it costs me about three more bucks at the pump. Okay, why the hell are we putting ethanol in gas again? And they want to add more? How long before it cuts into the efficency so much we're actually using MORE gasoline than without the stuff?
15% ethanol breaks down traditional fuel lines. Welch plugs installed with sealant will loosen and the sealant goes directly into jets and needle/seat. Pump diaphragms deteriorate with just 10% ethanol so 15% ought to wipe them out in a hurry. The little clear glass inline fuel filters come apart quick when ethanol wipes out the orings and that is with just 10%. Quadrajet style acc pumps turn to slime in their bore on 10% ethanol so I suspect just about every fuel system component will have to be updated.
Thats the exact problem. We are "increasing" fuel consumption by 10-20% with the current ethanol blend. Expect that to be quite a bit worse with the 15% ethanol. I was thrilled a couple weeks ago when upstate and got gas in my late model daily that was non ethanol blended. I used a third of a tank less on my return trip and it ran a hell of a lot better.
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The secret is in the numbers RustyNY posted. The oil companies discovered this years ago and are now running a government approved scam on all of us. More ethanol less mileage, less milage more sales more sales greater profits. And the best thing for them is they don't make the stuff so they can let their refinery capacity go down hill at the same time saving all the maintanence / upkeep money. then they can complain to the Govt that they don't have the capacity to refine more gas so they need to put more ethanol in it. The result is we get poorer and they get richer. Remember Exxon Mobile's Profits a year ago were nearly that of the GNP of several medium sized countries.........
It's also largely because of pressure coming from the environmental crowd. Corn is a renewable resource and supposedly it burns cleaner than gasoline, so they feel that it offsets the lower mileage. The only good part is that ethanol is a higher octane (E10 is 87-93, E85 is 105, 100% ethanol is 116). They should just offer both straight gas and E85 so you can buy whatever you want. Don't make us upgrade our fuel system and engines just for politics.
The few ethanol stations around me cant give the stuff away. Have a close friend whos job deals with ethanol refineries, says they are closing up steady. Thought it was a stupid idea forced on american consumers.
My Stihl weedeater is running E10-E14 with no issues I get good performance with Ethanol, the 54 still gets over 20 MPG with the smallblock I would bet it has to do more with the crappy offshore parts we are getting than the fuel. The soft parts are fine, those folks wrecked O2 sensors and leaned out an engine not designed to use that mix. I get better mileage with my flex fuel truck running alky blends. What I want to know is why the fuck did the Model T get 25+ MPG and Detroit has not figured out anything better in 90 years? GM did have the Saturn project in the early 80s that got 100+ per gallon, all the crash protection derailed the project.
Why milage goes down is there is less energy in ethanol than gas, though the octane (speed that the fuel burns) is higher. There for 87 octane E-10 has less energy, & poorer milage, than 87 pure gas. Supposedly E-10 reduces the amount of crude that we import. An australian Govt study showed a lot of crud on the valve stems with E-10 vs even E-5. Right now ethanol is made from corn, so it's keeping the price of corn high. even if 100% of the corn crop was used in ethanol, it'd replace only about 20% of crude used, & that doesn't take lower milage into account. Sawgrass is supposed to be a better source, but the farmers are unlikely to give up a Govt. subsidy on corn w/o a fight.
I think if you want to run more ethenol, build the engine for e85/90... By that I mean, fuel injection only and some sort of boost. E85 is burns cooler and produces slightly less energy but can take way more compression/boost with the right mixture. I've heard people running 22lbs with no pinging in an injected/ecu car. It's not period correct or anything but it would be fun to build a hot rod specifically to perform on moonshine...
I forgot to add the point about ethanol having less energy density, thank you. You are exactly right, everyone is focused on reducing foreign oil dependence but at what cost? Valve sludge, new fuel lines, less mileage AND higher price per gallon, higher prices for food corn...A good idea yes, but not thought out.
So how are the auto manufacturers supposed to make cars more efficient to make Obama happy, yet ethanol content keeps going up in the gas, making the gas less efficient. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/bymodel/2009_Chevrolet_Silverado.shtml Chevrolet gets 14/20 on gas and 10/15 on E85 on the 09 Silverado
Perhapse not, but the alternative is the internal combustion engine and consequently Hot Rodding as we know it, going the way of the Do-Do... I think we need to embrace anything "green" that allows us to still run Hemis and Flatheads... Because if we don't, the powers that be are just going to shove fuel-cells and electric motors down our throat and the only people with Hot Rods will be guys like Leno with bank accounts large enough to create their own fuel for their once a year drive in their kooky old cars... Will that happen in the near future... Probably not... But the writing's on the wall. And if we don't find a way get 'green' and still do what we do, sooner or later, we become dinosaurs. The E85 infrastructure is out there, and at the very least it will slow down the push for alternative power sources if it's adopted with any kind of enthusiasm. Methanol is an option too... But it isn't as easy to produce and will likely cause even more issues than Ethenol... So I say, jump in with both feet and build your next car to run e85 if you can... You might help keep the sport relevant a little longer.
The argument is that at 10/15mpg, the emissions are way cleaner... And I think it's safe to say, a flex-fuel vehicle is never going to touch the efficiency levels of a dedicated e85 vehicle. If they ever embrace e85 all the way, I think those MPG numbers will come more closely in line with 87 octane.
It means decreased gas mileage, decreased performance and increased maintenance. Bad deal for us, good deal for big agribusiness. There is no net beneft from ethanol in terms of reduced energy consumption, reduced polution, etc. Even the tree huggers have come to realize this. It is nothing more than a subsidy for farmers.
They will go to smaller, turbocharged powerplants and make the cars lighter. That's the easiest and cheapest way to do it. Result is more wear on powertrain, less performance and reduced safety.
This is nothing new..there are shut down ethenol plants all over the USA.. think they tried to cram this down our throats (and the auto makers) back in the early 80's (not exactly sure what years) Any idea that takes a food source and tries to make a fuel out of it is stupid in my book, especially when we have problems feeding people in our own country, let alone else where on this 3rd rock from the sun. And even more so stupid, when it doesnt improve fuel mileage or reliability in any of our vehicles but does the polar opposite, and costs the end user (us) more money in maintenance and loss of fuel economy.. Ignorance..brought to you by....well ,you know who.
Forgot to mention...it's been said that E-85 can't be sent through existing pipelines, so it has to be trucked, resulting in more energy being used than is being saved by using E-85.
Locally had a brewery closed a number of years ago, turned into an ethanol plant, lasted about a year, went bankrupt. I've also seen some numbers that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of corn ethanol than you can get from the resulting gallon. Supposedly switchgrass changes that percentage a bit, both through less energy to grow and I think more out of the finished product, or more of the finished product. I know my two O/T later model DD Suburbans, one got a high of 17 but was in the 10 range on 10% and the other I got 15 out of but it's dropped back some since I occasionally get gas that can have the 10% mix - I find if I buy by price, the cheapest places all sell that. Now it's not worth saving 10 cents a gallon if it costs me $2.75 more to go 150 miles and I saved a buck or so on the cheaper priced gas.
Why even discuss the problem? Whatever the action in regard to this issue that makes the most sense will be ignored in the interest of politics anyway..... That is about the only thing we can count on... so get used to it.
You think that Regular gas just leaps into the tanks at the gas stations? I'll give you a hint, most all of our fuel is trucked to the stations from as far away as 500 miles as it is. Outdated pipelines and refineries being part of the reason. I am looking forward to the alky we are starting to produce out here from forest waste. Since the west is covered by dead trees from the pine beetle there is plenty o raw material anyway, thank the Sierra Club
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