Establishing a Fair Value After the Accident

Well, the unthinkable happened the other day and my 1951 Willys CJ3A was wrecked when someone in the oncoming lane went to make a left turn right in front of me. I know the vehicle is slightly OT, but I am hoping this discussion will apply to anyone on here who plays with (and actually drives) old cars. At this point I have sold off all of my late model vehicles and drive older (67 and back) vehicles that are paid for in full, so I simply carry liability. If I had caused the accident, I would be SOL, and I have always been prepared for the consequences of such a situation. Also, because all of my cars are older, but still used on a regular basis, I am unable to carry specialty insurance. I am sure many of us can relate to this situation.

The adjuster has not been out yet to look at my vehicle yet, but I am trying to gather any useful information I can use for when he comes, and for dealing with the situation in general. The damage to the vehicle is pretty extensive; the frame is tweaked, front axle and steering completely torn up, both springs broken / bent, dented and leaking oil pan, broken engine mounts, the fender is ruined, hood dented, and cowl area of the body tub is pretty much wrecked. I am going to say that there is at least 3-5k worth of damage, and that is probably being conservative. With any luck the adjuster sees the extent of the damage and comes up with a reasonable number, and if nothing else I can get some quotes from some shops. I am not too worried about that aspect at this point.

However, what has been keeping me up at night is wondering how much the other guy's insurance company is going to value my vehicle at. I am worried they are going to come back at me and basically say that it was only worth scrap value even before the accident. The vehicle only has 25,000 actual miles on it, has minor rust and dents from over the years, and is extremely original right down to still running the 6V system. Somebody put it on wagon wheels at some point, and I put some 31x9.50 Swampers on it, but other than that it is original. NADA puts it at around 5k (low retail) to 13k (average retail), and I know that I would be looking to spend about that to replace it according to Ebay and CL prices.

I am wondering how do I go about defending the value of the vehicle if they try to low ball me? What tools and rights do I have to get properly compensated for the damage? I have been told by my insurance that I cannot use Ebay and CL prices to back up the value because they are "third party vendors", so therefore prices there might not reflect fair market value, although for the most part I beg to differ. If this was a late model vehicle this would be no problem, but last time I checked most dealerships weren't carrying 1931 Ford Coupes, 1957 Chevys, or even old Jeeps, so establishing fair value might be a little tougher. So what have you guys done and experienced? Do's and Don'ts, successes and horror stories, I would like to know so I can be prepared. I just want my baby back...

 

I hate to say this but I would seriously consider talking to a lawyer. Insurance companies will do whatever they can to limit their liability and the company you will be dealing with represents the other party. Most consultations are free. Ask around in the local car community and see if there are any motorhead attorneys that specialize in accidents.

 

sounds like it's almost totaled to me.... do you really think $3000-$5000 will fix all that damage? i say it would be a lot higher

what do you think it was worth before the accident? do you want to fix it , or get the fair value for it?

 

First, sorry to read about the accident and I hope you weren't injured. What did it look like before the wreck? Did it look nice or was it a beater? If it looks like you cared for it, that will work in your favor. If it looks like it was on deaths door, then the accident will be viewed as a blessing.

Sentimental value can also help, but don't depend on it. It's my understanding that a victim has the option of having his vehicle replaced or be fairly compensated. Unfortunately, that's where the fight comes in. If they low ball or total it, you're going to have to be a pain in their ass. Be prepared. You say you've seen values on EBay and NADA, so you have an idea. Just be ready to fight for your car or replacement money.

Just my opinion and experience, if you really care for a car, get full insurance. I can understand a high deductible to keep the cost down, but JUST liability on a classic, in this day of distracted drivers, is asking for trouble. You're lucky the asshole had insurance. Just hope it was a good company.

Other's will chime in. Pay attention.

 

This most likely will end up with you getting a lawyer to represent you and an appraisal from some accredited source. (usually your lawyer will have someone who he does business with)
If your damage costs are reasonable, it is a few phone calls between lawyers and you will get paid, if you want to get rich, them probably not.

 

So I'm guessing you never had the vehicle appraised. The best defense is to be prepared! Look through ALL the for sale magazines and price guides you can find with like vehicles advertised. Have them and any online information you can dig up on-hand when said adjuster arrives. But it's been my experience that it will take a week or two before the insurance company gets back to you. If they come at you with what you think is an unacceptable settlement let your concerns be known and tell them why their offer is unacceptable. PREPARE yourself with information is all I can suggest.

 

Hopefully, you won't be dealing with a sub standard insurance company. Most major insurers will base their offer on a standard "book value". Be realistic and fair. Good luck. Stu

 

1: load it up and take it to a restoration shop or call a few local body shops and see if they will send someone out if it isn't movable (put it on a trailer?)have them give estimates , those are "real world" prices from those that do the work and hunt the parts for a living ,

2: get some restoration parts catalogs together sounds lie a good time to hook up with the military resto buff sites , ant the collector 4wd guys

been there done that with a 41 Willy's p/u I had


we feel for ya ., pick up the ball and run with it , be ready to fight for what you have / had

 

First you need to realize this is going to be a fight, but the law is on your side. The insurance company is required to make you whole to the exact point right before the accident. What many don't realize is that it is your own responsibility to make sure that you are made whole. The Insurance company is required to act in good faith, but it is a rather vague term. You are in no way obligated to take the offer that they give you. The first thing I want you to do is inform the insurance company that you will only be communicating through email. This is a little red flag for them that lets them know you are establishing a paper trail. If they call you after this. Hang up.

Next get an appraisal, quick. Get someone who specializes in classics and has a good reputation. The better his reputation, the more solid the appraisal can stand. Explain your situation regarding the accident, a good one will look past the accident damage.

Then round up all the over priced ads for vehicles similar to yours that you can find. Omit the cheap fire sale one. The insurance company is doing the exact opposite, Finding all the cheapest ones it can find. They will use these to devalue your vehicle.

next when they tell you it's totalled and offer you $xxx.xx for it. You need to be very clear in telling them how unacceptable the offer is. How unfair you feel their evaluation is and not in line with "current market trends". How you absolutely will not accept a totaled judgement and how none of the vehicles they used to value yours are comparable, It is your right to refuse any vehicle they come up with as a comparable. I suggest you do so to any vehicle they present you with. Then present them with what you have found as comparable and your appraisal, Hopefully you have found enough high priced vehicles to get you in the ball park.

Also when writing them, It's good to use what I refer to as "lawyer speak" big words and and key phrases such as "acting in good faith" "completely unacceptable offer" and similar. This is when you drop the bomb "how could you so severely undervalue my vehicle compared to my private appraisal?"

What I am setting up here is that you are essentially going to be wasting their time making them spend time writing you instead of calling. reevaluating the value of the car and all that. To the insurance company time is money. It's in their best interest to settle a claim as fast as possible and move onto the next one, instead of paying someone to continue corresponding with you.

The way it works for them is this: They have 100 legitimate claims , out of those 100 claims 95 are going to take the first offer or be denied..which equals never hearing from them again. 4 will fight, like I told you to do, and get more money, and 1 will sue. It is in the insurance companies best interest to operate this way. because even when they have to pay out millions to a single case and some chump change to others. They are still raking money in hand over fist from the other 95% that couldn't navigate the claim process to their benefit.



Honestly I could write a book about this....I may even do so one day. How do I know all this? experience... I was offered 1600.00 bucks for my "totaled" 1979 F250, which ended up repaired at a tune of $6800.00 dollars of repair work and no totaled title. got any questions? Pm me.

 

"Agreed value" insurance policies seem to have merit in situations like this.

 

I have to agree with you 36-3window, 3-5k is probably on the low side. The damage to the body tub could be repaired, but it would probably be more economical to just replace the tub for about 4k with shops charging what they do. Fenders are $300 or so, plus it needs some damage fixed on the hood. That plus paint is realistically more like 6k. Then the frame needs to be straightened, axle, steering components, and springs replaced, engine mounts replaced / straightened, and I am sure I am forgetting a few things. So there you have another few thousand.

I put an album up with a few pictures me playing with the jeep in the water and the snow, and showing the damage to it now. The Jeep was not perfect as it used to be used on a farm, so it had some dents and minor rust on the passenger side of the body, but overall it was a very well preserved survivor. Definitely a 20 footer, but also not a beater, although I was not afraid to use it as it was intended...as a Jeep.

I cannot claim sentimental value, but it is probably my favorite vehicle I have ever owned...one I truly may have held onto for life. I am hoping to be fairly compensated for the value and the extent of the damage to the vehicle, and have full intentions of rebuilding it myself, although it will probably get turned into more of an offroad rig now. It will probably get totaled, but I have no intention of losing ownership of the jeep no matter what happens. The guy is insured with a major carrier, and the local agent seemed very helpful, so I am at least somewhat encouraged by that, hopefully the adjuster will be out before thanksgiving. I am definitely going to reconsider my insurance needs after this. If I had a late model DD this would all be so much easier. Put liability on the cheapo DD, and put Grundy/Hagerty or similar on the classics and be done with it. Late model cars bore me to death and I hate working on them, so I choose to drive older cars. I might have to get my old Toyota pickup going in the mean time. Any more advice on establishing a value? I would rather not have to get a lawyer but will if I have to.

 

And here is a pic of it now:

 

Sorry to hear about the accident,,hope everything comes out well. HRP

 

this the best advice,i have dealt with this twice, it is usually a fight depending on the underwriter,, Now get off the Hamb and start researching for anything comparable ,Do you have receipts for anything you have done to it?Also do you have any aches or pains to SETTLE up with them? Can help sometimes but they wont touch the vehicle until you sign off on medical.

 

Don't be surprised if they offer you a thousand bucks or less. I won't go into a long spiel on my little insurance company debacle, but they initially offered me $2,778.00 for a '70 F250 that was in amazing condition that got totalled in a tornado. The fact that I had TWO separate professional appraisals ($7,750 and $8K) just two weeks before meant nothing at all. After going to the state insurance commission for arbitration, I finally ended up with just under five grand, and kept the truck.

Get a lawyer and an appraiser. Now.

The above posting is nearly identical to my experience, BTW...^^^

 

I went through this last December, another driver ran a stop sign and took out my OT but fairly rare car. The first thing the other driver's insurance company did was try to establish fault; fortunately another driver saw the whole thing and offered to be a witness, so I gave his information to the insurance company and with his help they agreed they were 100% at fault.

Once that was established we started negotiating the price. I took the car to a shop I trust and had them provide an estimate, and then I found as many comparably priced similar cars as I could to show them what it was worth. Actual sold prices are best (try searching eBay for completed auctions to get the price that cars actually sold for), and also check cars.com or any of the other online car sale websites. If you're a member on any Jeep forums, check there as well for values.

Their initial offer is most likely going to be a lowball, but be polite and professional in your dealings with them. Refuse the offer, tell them what you think it's worth, provide information to back up your claim, and ask them to reconsider.

In my case it took nearly a month of back and forth, but in the end they finally came up with a fair offer. Good luck.

 

You mention that you can't claim sentimental value. You then state that this is the favorite vehicle you have ever owned. That sure meets my definition of sentimental value.

 

Sometimes things just happen and all though it was not your fault ,you take the hit.

The insurance company will declare the car as a unsafe vehicle for repair because you did not maintain the condition and allowed it rust. And that they will be held liable for the overal condition after repairs are made on what they beleive is their responceability. Courts will favor the Insurance Co. in this case. Sentimental value has no weight in court, Its just a car, you need to figure out (within reason) at what amount of moneys will make you whole again and stick with it, If you have another vehical that you drive, then you have time, but take too long and they WILL issue you a check for what they beleive is fair and then YOU must take them to court for the balence that you think you should get-- and that will take time and money to do which can eat up the the extra funds you might get.

 

Search around at auctions, NOT ebay or internet auctions, but dealer type auctions, I saw one real similar sell a few weeks ago for $8,200. Insurance around hear will give you the option to take their offer or they will find a replacement. IE they would have to find you a running and driving same year model with similar miles... Had a fight with them over a 63 belair and an ot truck which was 3 years old, rare options, and they tried to give me half blue book. Told them to find me one identical with plus or minus miles of 10%. I got blue book and bought the truck back for $600...

 

Do you have a stated fair REAL value appr. on the jeep one that is accurate most guys dont then when some thing happens this comes up now I had a friend who had a car burn up in another guys garage he said the car was worth some stupid figure but had no ins. on it. its never worth it to get your paper work in order till you need it! ins. cos. want PAPERWORK and if did not have time or were to cheap to get a value appr. on you car good luck.

 

How would that help him....He's not at fault and is dealing with ANOTHER persons insurance....

I'm sorry but this is complete bullshit....but then again you live in California...so who knows...

 

What?

 

I'm always wonder why people always assume the insurance will try to screw them. Sure, sometimes they try to lowball but that's their job and some companies and adjusters are worse then others. In the last few years I've had a few claims with my kids totalling their cars (one at fault, other not but it fell under my uninsured driver rider) and then my ot truck getting stolen. In all 3 cases the first offer from the adjuster was higher then I was prepared to fight for. Most cases they use NADA price guides using full retail but deducting any ovious previous damage. Might want to save getting all worked up till AFTER you talk to them.

 

Sadly I do not have receipts for anything that done to it, nor had it ever been appraised. For me it was a nice, almost completely original vehicle that I could drive every day, and simply enjoy, so I never bothered with getting it appraised. I have no injuries, and the fault was the other guys, and his own agent said that. Summersshow, where do you suggest I look for past dealer auctions? I have had no luck finding any that are in similar condition and NOT on CL or Ebay. Is there a separate section of Ebay for completed auctions? In my mind a completed auction should be a very good indication of current retail price, if nothing else it would satisfy my own curiosity. Hitchhiker, could you go into detail about how you managed to not get a salvage title? Did you just manage to get them to value your vehicle for high enough? Thank you all for the advice so far.

 

Ebay has a "completed auction" area.

 

I'd have to ask that wouldn't it be better for you to ask on a Jeep forum that caters to early flat fender Jeeps?

Repair parts are readily available from this source http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-body-parts/cj2a-cj3a-cj3b-body-parts.htm and who knows how many others.

I'm not sure about the front axle but here in the Yakima Valley of Washington a couple of phone calls would probably get a guy a link to a good stock axle for one in a day's time and most likely all of of the other parts needed to repair it to the way it was before it was hit.

To the insurance adjuster and a hell of a lot of others including myself the rusted out areas of the tub are a sign of neglect and are looked at accordingly. How much neglect is hard to tell but it may be rusted out to the point where repairing the wreck damage isn't prudent without a complete restoration.

Value: a bit of online research should find similar Jeeps around the country for sale in similar condition to yours before it was wrecked.

Ebay item 321254563668 another one 161154893565 and another that is a 2A but similar 111222714971 Older low hood but again quite similar but nicer in many ways 321255514443 Most of those are in a lot better shape than yours was before it was wrecked. That isn't slamming your jeep but just a statement of fact that you have to look seriously in the face and calculate your Jeeps value accordingly

 

The problems come from dealing with cut-rate insurance companies. In an effort to save a little money, some folks will seek out the cheapest deal possible. Problem is, there's a reason they are so cheap and it doesn't come to light until a claim is field.

The results are the same whether you're on the giving or receiving end. Low balled payouts or a court fight.

 

I have done many appraisals to find a price for the vehicle prior to the damage, this is easily done by a qualified insurance accepted appraiser. This is all the ammunition you will need to qualify the value to replace the car when the Insurance Company calls to settle the claim in addition they will think you know what you are talking about. Good Luck. Larry

 

I hate seeing these threads, Collector insurance (Haggerty or Grundy ETC..) is usually incredibly cheap for a good agreed value policy. I don't know why everybody doesn't have it. Good luck and hope it works out for you.