Technical EVERYBODY is Stumped with no suggestions

I am still on my return trip back to my shop. I will reply to this in-kind when I get there.

 

So I will share a story that I listened to and laughed about as a preteen. My mom and dad had two friends over. Bobby and Gracie. Seem Gracie had a penchant for getting speeding tickets. Bobby put something under the accelerator pedal to limit the speed. Gracie took the car into a few different shops over the week, no one could fix it. Bobby got the bills from the shops. He had to come clean then, pay the bills, etc and removed whatever he did.
Not saying this the issue, but does go along with what Jon said above, can you actually get full throttle from inside the car?

 

Oh my god that is totally hilarious and yes, I always verify full throttle pedal travel from inside the car while a helper holds the choke flap and the full open position, before I even start diagnosing items

 

Okay here goes, and I’m going to answer just like my dear friend James C. Allison would have: Lordy I miss him, and this will take about fifteen minutes. Coming up next.

 

OK, so the measurements originally given were a red herring. Glad it turned out that way, as it saved you purchasing some parts (metering rods are NOT cheap!)

YES, my tools measure erroneously-

The 27-94 jets are NOT Carter. If they were manufactured by whom I think they were, I would measure them before installing! But the 92's are almost a size lean.

-We measured the jets at mikes shop. And yes I’m definitely buying a set of Pin gauges from .001-.25”. Yes the whole lot is about 175, but I love tools and a guy hasn’t to do what a guys gotta do…. If I can’t afford a new ‘pew pew’ might as well buy tools)- my primary jets took a .092 pin but not a .093 pin. My metering rods are as per the book specs you mentioned in their part number, I measured .059 I believe, but years of cleaning here and there with steel wool can remove a few hundred thousandths over time, but my rods are correct for this carb.- the rear jets at store measured to .059. I bought a new set of .094 for the primary and .062” for the rears-


So, where do we go from here?

IF THE CARBURETOR IS THE ISSUE:

(1) you mentioned that the automatic choke is correctly adjusted, but is it functioning correctly? If the choke ****erfly is not fully vertical (in other words, off), then the secondaries will not function correctly. Have you verified the position of the choke ****erfly when the engine is hot?

-Yes, my first adjustment after making sure that the throttle pedal inside the cabin will open the carburetor to WOT, I head to the choke after that.-

(2) Have you verified that pushing the footfeed to the floor actually opens the secondaries (throttle linkage issues)?

-yes sir affirmative, full throttle on floor-

(3) That model WCFB has two "sight plugs" in the float bowl; one on the primary side, one on the secondary side. Have you removed these plugs with fuel pressure on the carburetor to test the actual fuel levels in the bowls. The fuel level should be just below the thread in the carburetor bowl where you removed the sight plug. Not doubting your adjustment of the floats; I just like testing to verify what I think I know.

-Yes sir! I see TWO different calcium lines in this carb, my float level after I rebuilt it was set to just touch the bottom of the threads. And then I reset the rears to allow the rears to come up and spill out of the threads yet not go halfway up the hole if you see my meaning, just in case I was wrong in believing folks saying the float level is too low: from a dead idle to 1500 rpm’s, then to WOT will not ever empty a bowl fast enough to cause my issue, unless driving under a load-

(4) A vacuum leak on the secondary side is intriguing; however, that would not explain why 65 MPH is the maximum on the PRIMARY side of the carburetor. It might be slow getting there, but that car should run 85 on the primary side alone.

-I fully understand that, and I’m going to estimate a fair 80 mph on the primaries, but then I noticed something…. My secondary blades Star opening at 1/3rd throttle, so technically I never got to fully open primaries. If I did a choke rod lock run test with the secondaries locked shut I’m positive I could hit 90 mph-

If the carburetor is not the issue:

-I just took pictures of bottom carb gasket, I may have found the vacuum leak, but I need better eyes on it.-

Have you placed a fuel pressure gauge right at the carburetor to see if the carburetor is actually receiving fuel at higher fuel requirements. I have seen stopped up fuel filters or a leak in a fuel line ****ing air which would cause an engine just to not rev any higher than a certain RPM. Which brings into play another question for which I have not seen an answer in your posts.............does the leveling off of the RPM occur in all gears or only in high? What happens if you lock the transmission in low, and accelerate? Will the engine accelerate past the leveling off RPM of high gear?

-fuel pressure I can boost from 3psi AT the carb with the flip of a switch to 5.5psi, it has not changed anything- I still feel a lean secondaries- the electric pump is a free flow draw through and does not effect the manual Carter Mo-737 fuel pump pressure-


I feel the secondary issue might be coincidental to the carburetor running out of fuel on the primary side.

-I sincerely do not believe that at any point the carb has had low fuel levels, either in the primary or secondary. Because if the carburetor did lean out in the primaries while driving it wouldn’t have got me to 65 mph on 2/3 of the primaries. I had Black plugs, idling and fiddling with the hot and cold idle tuning. I discovered those black plugs when I had to re-verify top dead center and apply timing tape to this harmonic balancer that has a +10 and a -10 and then increments in between it is a 7.5 inch diameter balancer and I have the timing tape perfect after dis***embling the entire front half of the engine bay to clean and apply…. At first I had the front needles out one and a half turns and then after reading a bit more it’s basically one turn to 3/4 of a turn for a good 500 RPM idle for this motor through this carburetor and then I read even deeper and it’s 450 to 480 RPMs is even good for this 331 but I don’t think that would help it off the line lol…. Finally, tomorrow I will start with fully closed primaries and 3/4 turn on a/f screws, use the switch to fill carb. Pump twice, crank engine to see if it starts and idles. BEFORE doing this I will wash each new plug to be white and clean for better reading. Furthermore, if it don’t start, I will open main idle set screw exactly ONE turn, then re-try, and this will continue until it starts and idles. This engine is a very smooth operating motor, it’s quiet as a church mouse. I will report my findings tomorrow, but I will await further replies to my carb base gasket between carb bowl and aluminum base plate. Somebody might just find the issue before I start in on it tomorrow.-


Keep posting, we will keep listening.

I think you for your patience with me. Now dig on these pictures and tell me what you think. And by the way it took me so long to type this because my ***hole friend drinking jager bombs keeps interrupting me….

regards,

Gary
Cl***y K!

 

As you can see from the photograph, my transition slots for the primaries are just low of square and you can see my air fuel mixture blades right above it. Now, if anybody can come up with some kind of explanation, why it’s still idle perfectly around 500 RPMs, even with everything closed, tell me now because I want to investigate further and also double check that base gasket and what you think happens along with the picture of the base plate

 

You really need to learn the quote function. This is almost un-readable

 

If this is a customers car that carb is worth 3-4k by now

 

Dear T man, yes, I understand. That’s why I said I’m going to “in Jaycee Alison style because it addresses every single question that Jon had asked me.

Anthony Marek, yes, this carburetor should be around three or four grand right now but it’s not because I take care of my clients especially when I’m scratching my head scratching my head and trying to figure this **** out lol I will not charge her for all the time I have into it, but she will get a bill, and it will not be tiny. Only if we can fix this. Now, if people would look at the photographs and share their opinions, I will be one step closer to solving this enigma and less these that .062 secondary jets fix the issue all together. And then I’ll be happy as a pig in **** lol.

I try to make sure that my customers have confidence in me, which is why sometimes I have to learn an entire new thing like this WCFB that I’m learning right now, even though it’s just a ******* carburetor, and all it does is deliver in a motion of air and fuel at any given RPM. Carburetors are one thing and they’re easy to figure out but this one isn’t because I’m a big fat retard right now.

 

Not a retard.
****, I dont know half the stuff you’ve discussed.
I clean em, toss gaskets at em, and set floats.
I’m here cheering with pompoms
Go team go

 

Oh my God I used to do the same thing because it’s so simple. You don’t have to change any settings you don’t have to reset nothing as long as everything blows clear and clean. This carburetor happens to be a little bit different because I don’t know if it was ever working before I got the car But it’s ******* well going to work when I’m done with it lol I just can’t wait for people to look at that bottom gasket and tell me all I have to do is cut my own and close this whole or that whole or basically I want somebody to solve my problem for me and tell me what to do lol Because my professional carburetor people can’t, and they don’t have flow test benches and none of my local friends within a 22 mile radius has a square bore carburetor under 450 CFM that I could put on here and just double check that it’s not the timing or the distributor or any restrictions. So yeah it’s like a chicken in the front yard. I’m scratching and pecking for the right answer to get that one, but

 

I just took a video of the primaries opening portions and the secondaries following them but like every damn video I’ve ever taken is too big for this site and I don’t have any offsite postings that I can post a link to

 

You can't post video directly here. Try youtube then link.

 

That’s cool how do I post to YouTube? Back when we had Photobucket and **** like that I knew how to work it, but that all is involved in paying for the site nowadays.

 

Well **** I have to download an app and I am definitely not in the space of mind to download an app. If someone wants to shoot me a friggin email I will email them the video of me operating the secondary and primary in the base plate system but as far as getting a YouTube video up here that’s going to be tomorrow or the next day after I do 10,000 different things tomorrow.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but I would find another carb and try it. Or purchase a bottle of xanex from someone and keep fighting this one. I find it odd that the carb has the correct float levels and proper fuel pressure and no vacuum leaks and it still does not function correctly. Save yourself some headaches and find another carb to try, then you KNOW it's the carb. JMO your results may vary. Lippy

 

You’re not being rude that it’s a simple suggestion and I have got feelers out throughout my entire county which is very fast and nobody has come up with a -450 CFM scoreboard for barrel that I can bolt on and try

 

Hell, I'm eat'n aspirin like M&M's hoping to make it to the end of this one

 

Not only are you driving yourself nuts your driving me nuts too. LOL Lippy

 

I’ll tell you what come January I’ll be able to have a bunch of Jager and figure this out but I don’t think my customer will be around that long lol tomorrow I am going to cut my own gaskets and make sure that every opening has a counter opening and there’s no extra openings like you see in the photographs above where the center has two lines going through it. Either way I will get to the bottom of this. And I will definitely post the correct response in order to solve this issue because I don’t like leaving anybody hanging

 

Ok so a WCFB and a 4-jet rottenchester will bolt on there. Gotta be one around. Lippy

 

Yep. or not the carb...or.... put a fuel pressure gauge on it, a volt meter on the coil, and drive it to failure, and see what you get. Start eliminating the possibilities. Divide and conquer.

 

Fuel pressure gauge yes, and I'd be interested to see how a vacuum gauge responds while driving, bouncy needle might mean weak valve springs like Mike said

 

It appears to me you have discovered a few things that could make a difference in how the carb works, it might actually work now. It have have been a bunch of little things.
If the last picture of the 4 posted together is a vacuum sealing surface, a single thin gasket probably isn't going to seal it. If all the sealing surfaces look like that, I'd pitch the carb and install a different one. Otherwise, good luck with your carb rebuild.

A 101,000 miles 50s motor that has probably never seen 3200 rpm may never see past 3200 rpm without a rebuild. Everything inside that 50s motor is wore out at 100K + miles. Then add higher rpm on top of that has the rings hitting the carbon build up on the cylinder walls (not even considering the ring ridge at the top of the cylinders), the worn cam lobs, and the extra wear in the valve train.

Maybe that speed limitation is not the motor at all but may be transmission related? It has 101,000 miles on it too.

You say this is all for the customer that will probably never open the 4bbl up. BS!

My son owned a 54 Chrysler New Yorker 2 door hardtop with a Hemi and that carb. It had a lot less then 100K miles on it. If YOU are expecting it to perform like a modern car with a 4bbl, your going to be as disappointed as he was. It is entirely possible the 4bbl is functioning perfectly on a wore out motor, that it running as hard as it has ever ran. But you expect to perform like the modern stuff does.

So I looked it up. A 54 Chrysler New Yorker Deluxe with the 331 4bbl had 235 HP at 4,400 rpm and the 2 door car weighed 4005lbs. A 235 HP 4,000lbs car might go fast, but it won't be fast. This one has a ton of miles on it.

 

I love everything the last three people wrote. And first of all, if the motor falls on its face at 900 RPMs or at 3500 RPMs at any time the secondary’s are open it has nothing to do with carbon nor compression.

It is simply an inability to feed the correct ratio of air and fuel, which is a fault with the carburetor, or with my rebuilding of the carburetor, which I will get down to.
And the surfaces you saw exposed on the base were sealed by this thick *** base gasket, but there were holes in there that I don’t like and I am going to reproduce a gasket without all those extra holes tomorrow morning.

Thank you for all of your input. This is making me a better mechanic and slowly getting this carburetor to perform better.
I appreciate you all.

 

As far as a fuel pressure gauge, I have already read it, both running without the electric fuel pump, and with the electric fuel pump and it does not change anything.
A vacuum gauge on the motor, is very complicated but not impossible. I’ll arrange that setup today before I fire it up.

(no more voice to type today, my apologies, my buddy was talking over me as I was giving these last couple messages)

 

You might stop using the voice to text thing. It keeps inserting the wrong word, making your sentences hard to read.

For vacuum, put in a T.

It might be helpful to put a wideband O2 in and read the air/fuel ratio that way.

 

So do we. If you insist on using speech-to-text, can you please read what you've typed before hitting the Post Reply ****on? I'm pretty sure Netanyahu doesn't have anything to do with your carb issue.

 

Aw heck, I have figured out how to quote bits and pieces of a post, don’t even wanna do what some guys do and can reply to different parts of posts from different posts, all quoted properly.
Funny thing? The most valuable tool for me at work is my laptop!

 

Was this ever done? It would help focus troubleshooting at the macro level, whether the problem lies with the carb, ignition, lifters, exhaust, whatever....