I agree with sandblaster, Brent is a good guy, and smart. The price of a new pair of control arms is cheap compared to the bad publicity.........
I was wondering the same thing too.......Those arms haven't been altered....my buddy has the same (or VERY VERY similar) pair on his 48 Ford with coilovers from Fatmans
Why weren't those arms originally made "all one piece." Wonder if inserting solid bar stock inside the tubing and then welding would have helped. In any case..poor design.
contact these guys and tell them about this thread because suchs a big company wouldt want suchs bad avertisment
One piece? I'm curious as to how you think that could be done. Each side was an individual piece, then the mount for the coil over was added in the middle. I just don't see how it could be done...
<TABLE class=tborder id=post3446045 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 1px solid; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid"><!-- status icon and date --> Yesterday, 07:01 PM <!-- / status icon and date --></TD><TD class=thead style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 1px solid; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 1px solid" align=right> #4 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e5e5e5 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e5e5e5 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e5e5e5 0px solid" width=175>ELpolacko<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_3446045", true); </SCRIPT> Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Phoenix,AZ USA Posts: 2,297 </TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_3446045 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e5e5e5 1px solid"><!-- icon and title --> Re: Fatmans MII <HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->not suprising. Weld joints at right angles to the support tubing. Looks as if someone has added bit of extra material to the arm. Welds were probably too hot attaching what appears to be .375" stock to the .188 wall tube. Crystalized weld and stress = failure. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________ http://www.myrideisme.com/Garage/Industrial_Chassis/ <!-- / sig --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Just never seen his arms with a gusset welded to the coil over support tubes. Could be mistaken, just had not seen them.
First - let's not let this run amok til Brent can respond on Monday. Two - here are pics of the STANDARD a-arms Fat Man includes in ALL M-II front ends since 2002 (check their ads and website). They are stainless steel and have an interchangable spring plates which bolt into the lower a-arm for coil-over, coil, or air ride set-ups. I'm not sayin' you're lying about having installed the front end two years ago but your pieces are not current products. I've been doing FM ads for ten years and those a-arms don't look like anything I've used in the ads. I've e-mailed Brent this link - which, in fairness, is what YOU should have done BEFORE you started this thread.
Why should he have emailed Fatman first...He is just giving a heads up on what we should be looking for...Whats wrong with that....And I will flat out tell you Fatman MII crossmembers suck....I have fixed 4 of them now...Their is no triangulation in the lower x-member in the ones that I have fixed.....They were just a tube that went straight across the bottom of the frames and that allows for twisting.Also the top hat just sit on top of the frame instead of going down the edges of the frame to tie it all in....By the time you are done fixing them they look like a Heidts or other similar companies...Sorry for being so blunt but its the truth....
Nine times out ten when someone on here posts a problem about an Alliance Vendor's parts the trouble is self-inflicted or is resolved quickly by the vendor. I'll agree that hanging an entire front end is not for amatures, but Fat Man has sold over 33,000 front end kits so a few of them must have worked out. Most chassis use the center cross (X) member to maintain trangulation for the entire frame don't they?
Chad, the issue is unrelated to the problem at hand and something that has been discussed before. Fritz, to answer the question, no. An IFS suspension of this type requires a crossmember designed to control the outboard mounted springs and the load of all the front end of the car as well as extreme braking loads. As most of the FM kits are designed the engine mounts (and engine) are being used to control the torsional force of holding the car up. The real issue is the design of the control arm and it's apparent inability to withstand normal usage. This can be directly attributed to stress caused by a multiple of things. Improper welding techniques, Load at right angles to support, Bushings mounted in single shear allowing the load to rotate the supporting members and causing stress related fatigue. I wish I had the time to draw up and do an FEA on that arm to illustrate what happened.
Never said or insinuated that he had altered the arms. After reading many threads on this topic, I think my post will be the response. I put a lot of faith in El Polacko's opinions on the matter, and certainly he has more knowledge on this problem than just about anyone here. This could have had really bad consequences, and I hope that the Mfg. gets it solved, if indeed it is a manufacturing problem.
A. I don't believe Fatman is an Alliance Vendor. Didn't see them on the list, so what does the Alliance have to do with this... B. There are documented problems with some of his stuff. Especially the earlier stuff. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115209
i've known brent for 20 some years and have tried experimental parsts for him. he is a real garage rodder that made a buisiness out of it. call him he will take care of you. i just ask that no one bad mouth him because he is a great guy. he has about 10-15 guys work for him welding and making parts but he gets his hands dirty along with them. he is truly one of us that love this hobby.
Damn, Zman, you're right - cheap bastard is not an Alliance Member. I stand by giving him a chance to check it out and/or make good. And, yeah, I'm a bit biased.
Man, that newer design for the lower arm sure looks a lot stronger. If you still have the paperwork from when you bought the stuff, I'll bet he'll hook you up with some of the newer ones. If I were in his shoes, I'd rather be a hero out a couple of A arms than a heel who sais screw the customer. Was there any other damage caused when the parts failed?
Speaking of "You should have..." the owner did say this was an older kit put on at a later time. You know, when auto companies have a semi-important design problem discovered, they do issue recalls and do use the media to inform owners. Do any front end builders do the same? I do not know. Seems like they would want to....or wait until a broken streetrod crosses the centerline and kills someone REAL important.
A friend of mine has those same lower arms from FatMan.He bought a complete rolling chassis for his 1951 Anglia.I do not remember how old the chassis is but i believe he bought it within the last 5 years.I just bought a FatMan stub for my 1934 Plymouth at Louisville Nats this year.I know FatMan was an Alliance member because he gave me my Alliance discount on the stub.If there is a problem with the lower a-arms i would be interested as the guy with the Anglia just got his car done in 2008 but has only driven it very little.Actually it is in the upholstery shop now.
ELpolacko,You are right I shouldn't have went off like that...I hope that those X members I fixed were and earlier design, and the problems have been taken care of...But my buddy has a set of those arms too.....They are almost exact...I will be having a good look at them in the near future..I hope Fatman Fab makes it right.......Just glad nobody got hurt
Wow, I in no way intended to bad mouth Fatmans as I believe they are a reliable company and produce quality products. I have e-mailed them re this problem w/pics but dont expect a response til monday. Again these are the old design , at least 5-6 years old, before they came out with the stainless units but only on the road the last two years/20k mi. I bought direct from Fatmans and did the installation. The arms were not modified in any way. I'm the only driver of the car so I would know of any abuse. No other damage except the shock. Lucky!
Fatman here. I just saw this post, thanks for making us aware of the problem. Given that it happened over the weekend, I suppose I'll also get a phone call from you Monday AM. We will certainly take care of your problem, and I apologize for the trouble. El Polako is on the right track. These arms have not been modified, we assemble them with a gusset to add strength to the cross tube joint that supports the lower end of the coilover. When steel is welded, the heat can cause some crystallization. That's normally not a problem when the stock is heavy enough, which is why we use .188 wall. The best metal and weld possible can fail if it is flexing. That flexing can cause work hardening, which eventually makes the steel overly hard and brittle. The "sugary" grain structure seen in that failure is evidence of fatigue due to flex. So haow did the flexing occur? We'll want to get a good look at the coilovers. If the coils show signs of coil binding, or the bushings are beat up, it may be seen as a sign that the coilovers were bottoming out. That causes the suspension to stop moving and all the impact force put directly on the mounting. We'll work together to see what that all looks like. You may need a stronger spring. Please call me directly so we can sort this out. This design has been real trouble free, but things can happen on the road. We'll upgrade you to the solid stainless arms and takes care of your costs. Brent
Chad, I gotta tell ya man, if you are seeing our shock towers without gussets going down the side of the frame, with the towers just sitting on top of the frame...somebody ain't reading or following the instructions! I can't control that! This not reading deal is so common that one manufacturer puts " DO NOT Read" on his instruction folder in an effort TO get guys to read and follow. We ain't always perfect, but 28 years and over 50,000 kits might suggest we ain't clueless either.
That is good service... but to be honest its always so sad that companys only act after thinks get in media in this case the H.A.M.B.
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