Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer

While I am not a classic car dealer, I have been in the car business for my entire working life. I did own a used car lot in Florida for 5 years and we did sell specialty cars. Currently I am the used car manager at a large Hyundai store here in Jersey.

I've seen an awful lot, and realize that shysters rarely stay in business for the long haul. Granted it's not HAMB friendly stuff, but when you sell weird stuff (We specialized in more exotic European cars, and not pricewise, I'm talking stuff like Volvo 850Rs, Jaguar XJRs, BMW M5s, etc) it's a lot of work to find them. I also bought nice stuff, and also serviced them before I sold them.

I found that really nice cars bring strong prices, but that you can also sell them quickly and for a fair price. Dreck will always be dreck and tough to sell.

Same with where I work now, since I took the job over right at a month ago I have increased sales, because now we're selling everything that we can as Certified Pre Owned. It's a simple business, buy nice inventory, or only keep nice trades, wholesale the dreck, and price them in line with market and they will sell quickly.

I did find the one comment amusing and rather misguided about dealers offloading bad inventory. We all do it. Right now I have a Honda Pilot. A 2005 with 66k miles (Apologies as it's not a HAMB car) that's had one owner and looks great. It's also been hit twice, once bad enough to blow the side airbags and cause structural damage. It's going to the auction. However I can't control who buys it at auction or how it is ultimately represented when offered for resale. All I can guarantee is that it's never going to be offered to one of my retail customers.

Over the past 16 years I have seen dealers who I wouldn't walk into without hiding my money in a belt to people that I would give a blank check to and tell them to fill it out for the amount that was required to buy the car from them. Most people that I know are honest, but some of them are flat out thieves. It's like most anything else really I suppose, I call it the "80-20 rule", 20% of the people cause 80% of the trouble. Unfortunately it seems that Ryan has dealt with an awfully large percentage of the 20% camp.

Bill

 

It's alright to make a living, but NOT A KILLING. The prices at most classic car dealers would make me invest my money in gold bars instead.

 

There's just a S__t load of stuff that goes on in this industry that pisses me off.

What's the difference between a dealer making 3X money and a builder billing for hours when nothing is being done on his car!

Don't get me started!

 

Much easier ways to make $500, but living the dream and adding lots of value. Actually more value added then you received yourself. But that is the life. You have to REALLY love hot rods and classics to do it for a living, when you do it the right way.

 

living the dream!

 

Hey give him a brake its not like he was a commisioned officer, he was a working man just like the rest of us.

I knew a master chief in the Navy that I liked real well, I mean hell he was still a squid but he was OK.

yea yea I know I am not adding to the conversation. Oh well I have already said what i wanted to say.

 

........... and they call me cynical & foreboding.
Tom S. in Tn.

p.s.; the economy will soon take care of people like these, and the opportunistic commissioned ones in the housing market as well, and it couldn't happen to a better group of folk.
Tom S. in Tn. again

 

What amazes me about the jist of so many posters to this thread is that they apparently believe just by pricing something higher (by their standards, at least) actually makes it more valuable. The "market", which is by definition what the average informed BUYER, acting on his own free will, will pay for an item.

Perhaps sellers can influence the 'market' a little by psyching the pool of buyers into thinking the market is higher than it is, but given that supply and demand ultimately govern everything, that isn't likely to have much lasting effect.

This whole mindset is a case of blaming the messenger. If the market value of a given model of car is rising, it is BUYERS driving that, not sellers. If the market won't pay the asking price, because someone else wil sell cheaper, or because no one will pay the asking price, the seller has two choices. Keep the item or lower the price until it meets the market. It really is as simple as that.

It also seems to me that what underlies this anger at "dealers" is that they have what you want, you believe they are making serious money on you and you feel 'violated' by that. How much money the dealer is making is irrelevant. What matters is, can you find a comparable item at or below his price. If 'yes', then buy elsewhere. If 'no' then the price must be market correct, i.e. what you have to pay anyone to get this item. If someone is selling at market, what business of yours is it how much they have invested? For example, what if the item for sale was received by gift or inheritance. No significant cost to the current owner, right? Should he/she just give the item to the first interested party they encounter? Is that what you would do if you were the beneficiary?

The one issue on which I agree with everyone is.......there is NO EXCUSE for lying or intentional misrepresentation .....ever.

Ray

 

I’ve read a good many HAMB postings, looking for advice on how to respond to a seller who treats customers disrespectfully. I haven’t found anything recent ... maybe we need an “Ethics” thread?

Anyway, this is the situation:

I answered an ad for a “totally reconditioned” head from a seller who advertises through this and similar web sites... At the seller’s request, I mailed half the selling price to “hold” the head, and I paid the other half in person at the Back to the Fifties Show in Minneapolis, where I had planned to pick up the head. (I didn’t see the head until later; another dealer, from whom I bought a used engine at about the same time, was getting several engines from my head seller, so it was arranged for him to pick it up to save me a trip... which effectively meant I bought it, sight unseen. Oops.)

OK...I was planning a major rebuild and only needed a good head casting, so I disassembled, hot tanked and mag’d the Now Not Totally Rebuilt head and it was cracked in four places. Unusable.

I photographed the cracked casting and sent several polite to less polite notes to the seller. Although we had frequent correspondence before the buy, he now won’t answer.

So, finally, this question:
Do I take my lumps, or
Do I share the seller’s name and maybe save some grief for the next buyer?

Thanks.

 

Jack, let me show you how it's done.....
I Poverty Flats would like to thank everyone EXCEPT Brian Johnson of Owatonna, MN for NOT selling me completely worn out engines for too much money and claiming them to be in good condition and being too chicken to return any of my emails.----same bad guy who screwed you on your "reconditioned" cylinder head.......

 

so are you telling me that folks have bad experiences with non-dealers?

I was under the impression that the Dealers were the only bad guys!

I feel so much better knowing this.

 

I look at it more simplistically: I'm not a fan of buying things specifically to re-sell them. I'm prone to becoming emotionally attached to things, prolly because I bought them to enjoy them. If I'm selling, I want the buyer to use and enjoy the item and not to simply 'turn it'. Knowing what they intend to do with the thing I'm selling... or at least what they convincingly tell me they intend to do with it... will affect my decision whether/not to sell and at what price.

I think others feel this way, also... at least to some extent... hence, the ubiquitous 'right of first refusal' attached to many deals in this hobby.

In that way, I'm like my dad when he's watching the 'Picker' shows. You want to come dig thru his junk pile for something you can hang on your garage wall? Help yerself! You want to come dig thru his junk pile for stuff you can buy cheap and then sell in your store for a tidy profit? Go fuck yerself.

 

car dealers make things go easier most the time when you are selling. they buy cars often so they dont stand and point at door dings or whine and complain etc... they dont have to wait and go ask the wife, its a fast easy transaction most the time. if you want X amount of money for a vehicle you tell the dealer this is what its going to take to buy it period and hope they buy it so you dont have 20 phone calls with the general public trying to beat you down before they even see the vehicle, missing appointments and you sit waiting for them, 2-3-4 trips back thinking about buying it or trying to raise the money, advertising scams where they want you to SEND them money............ -- ill deal with dealers anytime.

 

While I generally agree with your sentiments, your last line is a little harsh, in my opinion. There is NOTHING wrong with trying to buy something for resale.....and the initial seller is not taking in the shorts to sell for less than it might retail for IF he/she DOES NOT want to go to the trouble of looking for a buyer, which usually means hauling the item to a show/swap meet and/or advertising the item somewhere, usually at some cost.

There is a wholesale and retail market for virtually everything......wholesale sellers are not being cheated for not getting retail, they are simply discounting the retail value in exchange for not having to do the work it takes to sell retail. The "American Pickers" do not misrepresent what thay are about.......they simply try to find common ground (an agreeable price for both parties) with the seller and then take their chances on what they will/may get when they offer it for sale to the final purchaser.

Just the fundamentals of doing business and usually to benefit of all parties. each gets what they want....whether it be rid of an item they no longer need, or have sold at a profit, avoided doing the grunt work, or the buyer/seller made a buck doing the grunt work etc, etc. and the ultimate buyer got something he wanted but couldn't find on his own.

Ray

 

I LOVE this part

"This article is going to touch a nerve with some, so I am consciously watching my words as I type them. I don’t want to spit out something that’s too terribly toxic and over dramatic, but I do want to express my feelings accurately and without filter. I’ll tread lightly. I’ll hold back… if just a little bit.
For the most part, I find Classic Car Dealers to be a rude and brainless subculture of money-hungry fiends that are more disgusting by nature than maggots oozing out of the carcass of a dead animal."

 

There are.

Just like there are dishonest non-dealers.

And I think those shysters are as worthy of our disgust as the professional ones...

 

Ryan my friend.

Here is something interesting to think on.



I can actually buy nicer cars for less money more times from dealers than I can from individuals, if a dealer is ready to move something he has had for a while. A lot of times the individual's car has many more problems, and they want more money than a clean car at the dealer that he is ready to move.

With individuals, a lot of time it is what I call the "Pomona Rule of Economics" = the actual value of the car is divide it by 2, and subtract 2k.
That is usually what a correct price for the car.
= They ask $30,000, you look at is close, it is worth $15, - 2 = $13,000
Funny but true. But of course not on this board. Actually the classifieds here are usually priced pretty right to market value.

Here is a truth, that I wish was not true, but it is.
The interesting fact I have found after 20 years of doing this every day, is that that the only thing more crooked and immoral than a used car dealer, and that is the general public.

## If I bought cars sight unseen from dealers on their descriptions and prices, I could stay in business.
If I bought cars sight unseen from individuals on their descriptions and prices, I would be out of business in a month.


The general public is hands down way way worse than car dealers is you kept a record.
No doubt for sure.
Not that all dealers are saints, but what individuals regularly try to pull would put dealers in jail multiple times.

But, there are great dealers out there, and tons of great private parties also.

Good and bad everywhere.

Have fun.

 

As one who feels like I have a pretty good feel for this market, and have bought and sold a LOT of Classic Cars and Hot Rods over the years, not as a business, but mainly because I have AAHD (Automotive Attention Hyperactivity Disorder) I can honestly say that I have bought some very good deals from "dealers". If you know what you are looking for, and the market, it really doesn't matter who's selling it.

If you believe the concept that Used Car Dealers are all crooks, then the individual that is dis-honest is really worse as at least you "Knew" the dealer was a crook to begin with, but assumed that the individual isn't and he is preying on that.

 

There is a certain type of person that will be as crooked as they think they can get away with ( pro or non-pro ).

And there are persons who are not.
Those are the ones I try to deal with.

What the acctual ratio's are of professionals Vs non- professionals or which ones are likely to be more honest or dishonest, I have no idea.

What I do know is that this is a pretty small world.

Word gets around...

 

True...

A dealer has to average a net profit to keep the machine going.

 

How does cutting the middle man make a consumer more educated? Sorry but that doesn't even make sense. A consumer only becomes more educated if he desires to be and does the research, and that has nothing to do with who he is buying from.
As for loosing "the middle man (the dealer), the purchase/sale of anything becomes more efficient" - that is also not necessarily true. A seller of goods can only effectively reach and supply a finite amount of people. By selling to distributors and dealers, he now has many more outlets to efficiently sell his wares, increasing production, which ultimately lowers costs. Additionally, if he is selling in bulk to a re-seller, he can take a smaller margin on his goods, lowering the price to the re-seller who then in turns handles the sale to the individual. The cost per sale changes dramatically between selling a single item to a consumer and selling in quantity to a dealer/distributor. If this were not the truth of "Simple Economics" then every product would be sold manufacturer direct and there would be know stores for much of anything.

 

A person with one Hot Rod to sell doesnt need to increase production.

When he is increasing production, he is no longer a person who is trying to sell 1 Hot Rod...

 

That guy at Highline Motors,has got to be the worst,here in SoCal.......

 

Sorry, but I was responding to your words "the purchase/sale of anything becomes more efficient "

And how many of those EBay and Internet sellers are Dealers in disguise? I bought a 56 Ford from a guy on EBay who claimed in his ad that he was selling his poor departed fathers car and just trying to survive. Well when I got there, he had 20+ cars for sale, a sign sign that said Cleatus' Used Cars (name changed due to my poor memory), it was not in his fathers name and the real kicker, in the middle of the conversation his wife interrupts to tell him that his dad is on the phone. I guess my point is there are plenty of used classic car dealers that are not a rip off and the public these days seem to be as bad, if not worse.

 

Ebay, private party, dealers, there are crooks and scam artists in every one of them. I really think the key is an educated buyer. I just bought an off topic car for my daughter. The seller was a mechanic and swore a 100 times that the car needed nothing. After a 2 mile test drive I knew it needed the Watts link replaced because it banged horribly everytime I hit a pothole. I asked the seller about it and he claimed he never heard it before. BS! It just made me adjust my offer and go over the car with a fine tooth comb. I knew it would be a $50 part and a half of hour fix, so I bought the car for a very good price. Moral is know what you are looking at and you'll be OK 99% of the time, if you don't know what you are buying find someone who does. A lot of heartache could be avoided with a little research and leaving your emotions home when you go to buy a car.

 

Some are, and some are not.

Years ago me and my Ex went to look at a used ( O/T) car.

I asked the salesperson was this car in an accident?
Why was it repainted?

She said" this car has never been repainted."

So I asked her about all the sandingmarks on the 1/4 panels...

"Oh, I dont know. We got this car at an auction"

Right....



And then there was the buddy who said:

" you can have this part for what I payed for it "

Naming a price that was about 5 times as much.
( he forgot he had bragged about his catch when he bought it... )