I wish they would put a separate section in the classifies for dealers selling cars so people that don't like dealers wouldn't have to look at it. I see ads, eight cars deep, for one person. Sounds like a dealer to me.
Personally, I don't know anyone who likes used car dealers. I have a friend who is a used car dealer. Buy here / Pay here. He makes good money selling to people that can't buy elsewhere. He's my friend and a good guy but I couldn't do what he does. His business ethics are just a little too shakey for me. Does that make him a bad guy? Not to me. But then again, I'm neither buying a car from him or ranting about people like him on the interweb. There's dishonest business persons in each and every market world wide. Who are we going to target next? Speedway? They suck IMO.
This post gets to the heart of the matter. First, you must do your "due diligence" in any business transaction - know the market, know what you want, know the person you are dealing with. I can't conceive of someone purchasing a car, any car, sight unseen, based on some representation made by someone you've never met, much less wiring funds to a stranger. How could anyone be that trusting? In any market it takes a WILLING AND ABLE buyer and seller. You don't have to buy, you don't have to sell. Something is only worth what that willing and able buyer will pay, and what the seller will accept. I have always been a serial collector. I can't afford or garage more than three cars at a time. I look at cars all the time, they fascinate me. If I'd find a "new face", as my old dealer friend Ralph used to call them, that I couldn't live without, something had to go. I had a great dealer friend (collector MOPAR stuff) in NC who consistently paid more for my castoffs than I could get anywhere else, and he was knowledgeable and honest. I think we tend to see ourselves as victims when we act impulsively or foolishly, or allow ourselves to be deluded by a stranger who tells us something that just doesn't seem right.
Great job here Ray. I have bought and sold all of my life to support myself and family by doing that. I have yet to use a gun in buying or selling. I use cash and that works many times. The times it doesn't, I'm fine with it. Unfortunately when you do use cash a few still think they have been screwed. These are the same people that are employees of a company and think the company is screwing them because they're expected to be productive. You've not seen a double standard until you join a car club and then listen to the complaints that you're making a profit from their hobby and you should let them have it for what you paid for it. Dale Wilch
I honestly believe most salesmen, of any kind, did their internship at the local carnival............ as a snake oil salesman
Thats funny - because EVERYONE makes a living by selling something. If you clean toilets for a living - you sold the company that you were capable of cleaning toilets. If you are a mechanic, you sold the company you were capable of fixing things. If you own the company, you sold your employees that you are a good owner. I could go on and on - and what JOB do you do or did ? Need I answer the question ? You sold somebody you could do something. let me guess - you're a clown at that local carnival you were mentioning
I agree that the guy was a tactless jackass, but a valid point is made that has been mentioned on this thread and others. As potential buyers, many of us are quick to point out that we are prepared to make a cash-on-the-barrelhead purchase, not "I don't have the full price but I'll send you the balance" or "I'll give you $xx down and $xx a month" or try to work a POS trade into the deal. The guy in Denver did a poor job of trying to weed out another tire-kicker, looky-loo or test pilot with no intention of buying. The process is called qualifying the customer: the seller needs to quickly learn what the buyer's needs or intentions are. If a guy comes into your clothing store to buyer a $20 pair of bluejeans, don't try to sell him a $3000 designer suit. It's like trying to teach a pig to dance ... it's a waste of your time and pisses off the pig.
Now THAT sounds like a dealership I could dig! I think it's unfair to say that all people who sell things are dishonest. More accurately, a good portion of the people who make their living on the commissions from their sales figures tend to become morally ambiguous when it comes to their integrity versus putting food on their table. I can't say I blame them, because I don't. I blame the greedy business folks who perpetuate the environment that forces these good people into poor decisions.
"I don’t believe all dealers are bad folks. In fact, I feel like 99% of all people in the world mean good. It’s just that I feel like a time has come and gone." It came and went before you were born, you young maggot hating whippersnapper. Now, you are dredging it all back up with this internet thing. Insert smiley face for Gonzo effect.
The fact is the world itself has changed a lot. The human kind has always been kept in check with the proximity of others, but the isolation and privacy afforded by the internet is bringing out the worst in some people. It's not all to blame on the internet, of course, to some people all it takes is a crowd to walk into and never be found again. There are foul characters everywhere, be it professional car dealers or private sellers, looking to rid themselves of a duffer onto someone else's hands. The fact that many persons cannot be bothered to learn or deal with the work required to get a car in shape or to keep it that way guarantees that there is an ever-increasing number of poorly preserved cars on the market at any time. These are the ones that tarnish the reputation of old cars as a whole, and they keep turning up. It's a given, not easily solved as there will always be careless persons. The UK scene I believe has somewhat filtered this through strict annual inspections (the MOT test), and there are privately-arranged inspections that can take a lot of the hassle involved with buying a classic off your hands when you feel less than qualified to inspect a car you're interested in. The less-than-decent dealers are also quickly filtered through, and laws have been made to toughen up the control on these issues, so the bad seeds are pretty much non-existant by now. The EU itself is weighing in on this issue too. I imagine this issue is severe in the US due in part to the free-for-all mentality and lack of control on these aspects, but a dealer or private seller that imposes a bad car on someone should be sued out of existence. People should demand stricter control on cars, rather than let anyone drive any contraption with four wheels as they damn well please. We've seen here several poor build and repair standards, but these are caught on by people on a private basis, not an official test. Cheers, Eddie
EXELLENT read Ryan! I would love to read the un-doctored version! Live and learn fellow hotrodders/ people. Even the most savy horse traders are up for a burn from time to time [ask me]. I trusted one of these guys myself once. Lost over 10 grand on a deal.....Rest asure Karma never sleeps! Just don't deal with em you be "ARITE"
I agree,think about it, we all have a little teddie in us all. Whether it be buying a small part from the swapmeet to buying the whole car from a private seller or dealer. we all want the the best deal.i know that people the hamb mark up what they have for sale and already have a bottom dollar price that he or she will take and there is nothing wrong with that. never seen an add that says, I bought this 2 years ago for 200$ never got to use it so I just want what I paid even though I know it's worth more lol. the little old lady dying and Scott losing everything all because the sale of a car,hmmm maybe a bit to much.you got a good thing going here. this place is like a brotherhood of car junkies, some good,some bad and you do a good job of letting us know who are the worst. Thats how I explain it to anybody I meet who hasn't heard of the hamb. P.s. Yes I'm an alliance member and and I bought the app, it was a good deal.
I actually have marked very little up that I have sold on the HAMB. I buy something when I think I need it or can't pass it up then I either use it or it sits on a shelf, when I need something else or want something else I sell something that I didn't use. If I got a deal then whoever needs or wants it after me gets a deal. I think I did come out 15 dollars ahead on a 300 dollar part last year but it was what was needed to pay for another part that I needed at the time. I don't sell parts to make a living and I think that a good percentage of us don't. I do normally price things a little high so that I have wiggle room but I seldom require the asking price on anything. I also seldom get the asking price on anything either. It never bothers me if I break even or close to it I am good.
I'm not sure I feel completely comfortable being the devil's advocate. But a good dealer could provide the following positive services as an intermediary in the commerce chain: 1. The ability to provide quick cash to someone needing to unload a car that may have needs. 2. The ability to provide quick cash for a group of cars. 3. The ability to trade one car for another. Tough for individuals to pull off but dealers are happy to take trades. 4. The ability to take multiple lesser cars in trade for one greater car.
Gald to see there are some folks on here who are thoughful people and understand and appreciate the utility of middlemen (assuming they have integrity). Can't help but wonder how the "haters" of auto dealers feel about their grocer, shoe store, appliance center, clothing store, hardware merchant, Snap-On tool salesman, etc, etc........... seems like anybody engaged in "commerce" and expects to make a profit, is evil, except THEM of course! Start a business sometime, in compliance with all the local, State and Federal laws, licensing, various taxes, insurance, utilities, advertising, sundry other necessary services.......and see how precious little of the "exorbitant profits" remain after the negotiated (reduced) selling price is received and the vehicle's cost and all overhead is deducted. By the way, as an employee (for those of you not self employed) how much are you worth..........by that I mean, how much value do YOU actually add to your employers business? And how does that figure compare with what you cost him to have around. That cost is what he pays you in gross wages plus the cost of Workmen's Comp, the various payroll taxes, paid holidays, sick days etc. His total cost is probably 25% greater than the wages themselves. Ray
Ryan is asking if there is a need for the dealer. Clearly there is a need, just maybe not as strong of a need as in the past. To me it seems he is generally against the dealer, but why? He said he doesn't care about profitability. I kind of don't really see where he stands. I think most on this board would avoid the dealers, as in having a storefront, sales lot etc. But to buy one from a flipper, assuming you looked at the car, if your happy with it I don't see much harm in it. The deception that people pull in selling ANYTHING is wrong. I am glad the above poster wrote about the grocery store, etc. Everything is bought and sold.
That is actually what I tried to do with my '32. But as I said early on in this thread the dealers want to give you wholesale for your car and charge you retail or above for their cars. So for them it's a win-win, but not so much for me. You, bopwop, were one of the dealers I approached as well via PM. I have nothing against these dealers, but felt I did not need one to do what I was trying to do. Rather than take some low-ball wholesale price I simply sold my car privately. I am holding off for now on getting another but spend lots of time looking at cars for sale and find dealer pricing to be much higher. So FOR ME (personal choice), I don't see the value in buying from one.
Did you actually read what you are writing here????? If you didn't, you should. If you did and don't see the glaring gap in logic, then you need a course in 'critical thinking'. "only offered you the lowball wholesale price" did he? so you sold your car privately! Well, Sunshine, at that point you just became a "dealer" or "retailer" at the very least. You "earned" the difference between the wholesale value and the retail value by doing the marketing yourself. Answer this question. If some guy you didn't know came to you with an item of significant value (could be a car, boat, piano) and said "I need to sell this item....would you give me as much as you THINK you MIGHT get for it and then try to sell to get your money back? I mean, I really need the favor" ......"oh, and by the way, you'll have to absorb all the expenses associated with trying to sell it......sooooo, you might lose money...he he he ......but hey, you'll be a really Great Guy if you do that for me"...... Any takers in the audience????......... Didn't think so. You, and people who think like you, should try the old adage of "put the shoe on the other foot and see if it fits".........I don't know if it's gross ignorance or arrogance or a combination of the two, but the expectations of what someone else "owes" you is simply unbelievable! Ray
There is a little known movie out several years ago called "flywheel". It tells the story of a small dealership in the Midwest where the owner uses bad judgement selling cars, and almost loses his business, then is redeemed... It's a faith based movie. Kinda cheesy acting , however the story is a strong one of integrity and character.
Unfortunately the people who buy from a classic car dealer are also the people who are easiest to be fooled. They know very little about working on, or building a ride, so they aren't able to spot things that a seasoned veteran would. Great article Ryan, and I hope those who would be taken by one of the bad dealers read it and learn. If you don't know, then take a friend with you who does know!
Ray I think you are correct to a point. But allow me to play devil's advocate here. I don't think that any one of us should have a problem with capitalism. Our economy is based on that. There is a difference between someone who buys and sells for a living and is honest and upright in their dealings and the other fella that is so interested in making a buck that they are blinded to the fact that there is a legit profit margin and one that is grossly inflated. I understand the need to cover overhead; if I buy a carb for 20 bucks and it costs me 40 to clean it and keep it until it sells than I need to ask 78.00 to make a 30% profit margin. Never the less if I buy it for 20.00 and turn around on my heals and sell it for 78.00 my profit margin has just become grossly inflated. 30% is just a nominal number here. That does not insinuate that I should sell it to the fella standing in line behind me for no profit at all as I am being a capitalist for this arguement. At my 30% profit margin it would be 26.00 plus a little for my cost to get here to buy the carb in the first place I guess that would be closer to 30 bucks. I can't see anyone having a problem with someone buying and selling for a living. I only see a problem with someone raping for a living. I do not think that the average Joe is in business for the good of society. I have made business deals to help other people out in the past my self but I am not buying and selling for a living. There is a very large abyss between capitalism and charity.
Funniest and most over exaggerated sales practices in a movie were in a film called "Used Cars"! <iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZQiTRQTiMGY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I would say that it's best to express your opinion without attacking others, but that comment would be riddled with hypocrisy - wouldn't it? In any case, I don't believe it's fair to grocery stores to compare them to used car dealers. Grocery folks are dealing with set costs and given retail prices. You can't go to a grocery store and haggle down the price of a gallon of milk... And if you tried, you would be looked at like swine and quickly shown the door. At the end of the day, we are basically dealing with economies here. There are two basic drivers to economies when dealing with supply and demand: 1. Market size 2. Market Knowledge Each works independently of the other. For example, The US is a large and stable economy. So large, in fact, that in most cases the laws of supply and demand are strong enough to set a pretty reasonable price for retailers to charge and the market to pay. A good example is a trip to the mall. Not many folks try to haggle prices at Dillards or Best Buy. The reason is that the economy is mature and sizeable. Prices are set. Now, go to a mall in Mexico. The economy is much smaller and the mindset is completely different as they don't have the kind of expendable income that most americans enjoy... You can haggle just about anything in a Mexican mall. I know, because I've done it. It's like a sport. Go to a Mexican grocery store and the story is different. Everyone needs to eat, so the economy is bigger and more stable. No haggling. Now, what about market knowledge? This is where, in my opinion, classic car dealers have tried to make their grab in the past. That said, lets use electronic boutiques in New York City as an example. Haggling is a pretty regular thing in these shops. They price their stuff higher than retail and then expect to be driven down. This does two things: 1. There is a chance that someone not in the know (a tourist) will pay their full, over-retail price. Huge margin. 2. Those that don't, will haggle... and even if the seller just drops the price to retail, the buyer feels as if they got a deal. In reality, they didn't... The Electronic boutiques in NYC can do this because they deal in a trade that much of the walk in traffic is not educated on. A tourist without internet access might have no idea that a Panasonic LX5 can be had for $300 online, so he pays $550 after haggling down the retailer from $575. The retailer is leveraging his position of knowledge. The internet has been slowly chipping away at these boutiques. As people get knowledge, the stores lose their leverage. According to the New York Times, there were 45% less store fronts on the street in 2010 than there was in 2005. I think you will start to see the same thing with Classic Car Dealers eventually. The more educated the buyers become, the smaller the margins get for the dealers. At the same time, as this hobby grows, the economy becomes bigger and more stable. If I were a classic car dealer, here's what I would do: 1. Continue to buy as low as I could, but do so with honesty. Educate the seller - tell them you need to buy low so that you can make a profit. The service you are offering is cash now and an easy, no hassle sell. 2. Sell to the market with complete transparency. Provide contact info of the person you bought the car from to the new buyer. Provide as much history of the car as you can. Set the price as low as you possibly can and don't answer to haggling. Don't confuse the transaction with warrantees, financing options, etc... The idea is you want the transaction to be as simple and as CLEAR as possible. As a seller, the service you should be offering is a "lower risk" sell. If you want more margin, improve the cars with quality work and detail that work in your selling documentation. And like any shop would, warranty that work for a reasonable time period. Finally, provide references to your buyer. Prove to them that you are giving them the contact information of your last 5 buyers and invite them to check out your history. The idea is to create a trusting community. ........ A sidebar of sorts that is related. Many folks might argue that the new car market as an economy is large and educated. Even so, there is plenty of haggling. Why is that? Simple. Car companies and dealers do everything they can to add complexity to a transaction. This complexity comes by the way of extended warranties, a large number of available options, crazy financing deals, etc... All of this creates an education gap between the seller and the typical buyer. The dealers can then use this as leverage to increase their margins.
No, I'm not an MBA... But I do have two MBAs from the University of Oklahoma. If I were an MBA, I would have enjoyed writing that last post and I would have a tie on right now.
The Jalopy Journal
