Technical Finally a solution to the flat tappet lifter problem?

Ive had good luck with this.https://iskycams.com/shop/index.php...d=1809&zenid=09f108c62726f655ff4219397859f9ce

 

Lets ask this , How many have installed a new aftermarket made after 2017 Hyd or Tapped lifter & cam ( not Oem) in last 6 mouths to year has 5,000 plus miles on cam / lifters
Did or DidNot have Failure??
I personally know of 2 that had No issues,
1 hyd 1 flat tappet, both are
Drag thoe sbc 400s 11 os cars ( Howards brand)

A different issue, oil related
A relative thats involved in modern engine builds
& commercial is saying several guys are reporting issues with Rotella oil ,
& Racers are switching to VR1 oils

 

Shell cut the zinc content due to gov't mandates, that's why it's now called Rotella T4 instead of just Rotella T.
Personally, I use VR1, but others that are designed for the older stuff work well. Red Line, Joe Gibbs and Amsoil are very good brands, and specifically made for the stuff we build.

 

I just downloaded just under 160 used oil sample results of Shell Rotella T4 15W40, over those samples the average zinc content was 1260ppm. What were you expecting it to be?

If you go to the Shell website you'll see that Shell uses the name "Rotella" for at least 4 different engine oils, each has a "T" followed by a number, there's T1, T4, T5 & T6. They use the T_ designation to differentiate between the different brands.

 

That's what was explained to me by a Shell rep. I took him for his word, so can't say otherwise. Newer diesel engines didn't require the additives that older ones did. Again, what he told me. I was a mechanic, so that was why I asked him. If the info is incorrect, then I apologize.

 

Short article about those very questions in the last Hot Rod. Good read.

John

 

Not necessarily all incorrect, maybe inaccurate is better. Thing to remember: All manufacturer's reps are salesmen first and may not know anymore that anyone here about the technical performance of the product they are selling.
Only if speaking with an engineer or designer can one be fairly sure of the accuracy of technical info.

 

I have 2.
A 350 with a cheap Elgin and Elgin lifters
A 500 caddy with a lunatti with their lifters. The lunatti lifters we’re removed quickly. Non adjustable valve train. The lunitti lifters were shorter than stock. Replaced with Johnson’s lifters.
The 350 has over 30k still going
The 500 is at that 5k mark and doing fine.
Both had the assembly lube my engine parts supplier uses. Sticky stuff. Both running 15/40.

 

It's clear that a limit was placed on the amount of zddp in the oil starting in 2007; well that not really accurate, the limit was on Phosphorus, but the main source of phosphorus is zddp, so yeah, zddp was limited. And the actual time frame was officially 2007, but the new formulation was likely released into the market towards the end of 2006.

So I just ran a query on Rotella Samples from 2006 and I got just under 170 samples, of those samples the average zinc level was 1444 ppm, so yea there was a drop from pre 2007 to current levels, but it's really not much, right? Mid 1200's is still pretty good I would say.

 

Wonder what the ratio between high lift cams/high pressure springs that’s died compared to the stock or mild set ups.

My SBC has the “Z28” springs. The 500 has what CadCo called a level one spring.
Doubled the spring pressure but the stock was only like 45#

 

I believe you're onto the problem man. That, and failure to assure proper lifter function. Z28 springs are about the wildest stuff I've ever used.

 

I would bet oil has not as much to do with it as some think. In my lowly opinion as Brian said, the main culprit is tight lifter bores and insufficient break in rpm. If I have a tight lifter out comes my brake cyl hone till it fits. I use a moly based assy lube on the lobes and lifter bottoms. And for kicks and giggles I pour a quart of oil down the length of the lifter valley. I throw a big ass fan in front of the radiator with no thermostat in it and when it fires, it goes to at least 2500 , I verify the timing and add coolant. Then I grab a beer and watch the header paint burn off. if it all seems fine, oil pressure, temp ect... I shut her down after 10 or 15 minutes and drop the oil and filter.

 

I killed a set of full length headers on a break in. We backed it out of the shop, burped the radiator and headed out.
We drove it from Jasper Al to Charlotte NC.
No transmission cover. Could see the collectors glowing. Those things glowed orange to almost Atlanta.
killed the short glass packs as well. Loud!!!
Th400/410 gears.
Was stuffing TP in my ears.
Good times

 

My sons 1/2 mile dirt car by rules must run a cast iron cam. Ours are flat tappet. The engines have 377” to 422” SBC’s we’ve used Comp and Isky cams. Spring pressure 135-140 on the seat. We’ve never lost a cam in 11 years of racing. The last 2 engines we used the lifters with the oiling holes on the bottom of the lifter. The Iskys are offset, the Comps are centered. Engines have been run in on the dyno and in the car and never used break in springs. He has used Chevron Delo 15-40 in every engine. All engines are pre-oiled before first start up no matter how long it takes
Maybe lucky with cams as he’s broken parts but never a cam. Depending on which track under green flag laps the engine normally sees 5000-7200rpm.

 

I didn't realize steel flat tappet cams have been available for that long. Have you used the same manufacturer for 45 years?

Retarded timing?

Reminds me of a motorcycle ride I took from Kansas City to Sturgis SD. I had just built a 76 FL for myself, and rebuilt a 59 Panhead for a buddy. He always rode newer bikes, and often forgot the left handgrip was used to advance or retard the timing. Once it got dark I noticed his header pipes were glowing. I rode up on his left, pointed at the handgrip and made a twisting motion. He advanced the timing, and thirty seconds later the pipes had cooled enough for the glow to subside.

 

Still got a pre 2006 drum of Rotella with enough for 2-3 oil changes left in it - after that I need to find something new.

I also have 2 drums of 1960s Essolube. Doing the math, that schuld easily last me till I die - does engine oil have a shelf life?

Frank

 

I don't know about shelf life, but I'd bet that all the good shit is on the bottom of the drum...

 

Couple weeks ago I caught this Youtube vid about this from Powell Machine. This shop shows their experience inspecting new lifters before use. They saw huge machining flaws including non concentric faces, improper face angle. and other issues. The hardness was good on their samples, and the cams checked good. Skip to 4:40 if you are impatient!

 

I go with a 1/4 turn of initial lash before I start the new engine or cam. After the break-in I reset the lash. I use Permatex Ultra Slick as an assembly lube. I dump the oil and filter after break-in. I use VR1 oil, 10W-30, you need the oil to flow immediately, if not sooner. I pre-oil and use a gauge to make sure I have good pressure, I'll rotate the engine 90 degrees at a time to make sure each rocker is getting oil. I must be doing something right, or am the luckiest SOB on the planet.

 

Timing set with both a light and vacuum gauge.
But we did wrap the headers. Thought it looked cool. I’d imagine that helped with holding the heat on a break in.
They stopped glowing on their own.

I guess header wrap and hammering a fresh engine doesn’t do well

 

Well, after reading all of this, all I can say is I'm glad that I've got several sets of lifters that were manufactured 30 to 40 years ago that I picked up at a swap meet from a vendor that had cleaned out a machine shop that went under.

 

I rebuilt a Pontiac 400 last year a local fellow built for himself. His first rebuild lasted about 12 minutes before shutting down. When I pulled it apart I found the camshaft key had been force out of the groove when he didn't have it aligned with the gear, this forced the cam forward. The fuel pump eccentric was rubbing on the timing cover. Three of the lifters were worn off due to being way offset from the lobes. I cleaned the engine out, replaced the cam and lifters with another Mellings Factory replacement cam and Crower Camsaver lifters ( the ones with the groove down the side for extra oiling). I used Penn Grade oil for break-in and had no issues. He was told to run it for a 100 miles and change oil. I got a call a month or two later and was told it's not running right, had about 50 miles on it. When I pulled back apart, the cam was dead again along with five lifters. A total rebuild was in the works again, this time I used a different block in case the lifter bores were damaged. The valve springs were also changed to Crower from some unknown super heavy race springs. Turned out he changed the oil right away and used standard Walmart 10-30. Heavy springs with the wrong oil killed it.
It's still running as far as I know with a Summit Racing brand cam, NOS Clevite lifters, and Penn Grade oil for muscle cars. Had I know what valve spring were on it the first time I would have changed them, but he said the heads were rebuilt to factory spec's. so I had no reason to check them.

 

Wow...learned a lot of "buzz" words reading all of this. Some pontificating more than others.

No reason today...not to use a roller lifter cam and lifters to fix all of these apparent problems.
So you may need to eat peanut butter sandwiches for a coupla days to save...big deal.

Mike

 

Yeah, it does. It probably varies by company but I think it's safe to say that all of your's are past the reccommended shelf life. There is probably some stratification of additives in the oil by this time, and simply stirring the oil up won't really redistribute them into a homogeneous mixture.

 

That's good. There were another couple of video's from this guy, I don't recall if it was this thread or another recent one, and I do think he's on to something. May not be the only issue involved, but it just may be the largest one with the largest impact on the problem overall. Put it this way, special break-in oil would only be a bandaid for the problem he's identified, and probably won't save it from failure. And properly engineered and machined parts, fitted in a good block with good lifter bores, shouldn't need special oil.

 

Back in the 60s we tended to run bigger clearances in our engines especially rod side clearance throwing more oil around in the bottom end. I will second the light springs . There was a reason Chrysler Max wedge cars had the race springs in the trunk.

 

All military 302’s used a steel cam starting in 1952; I’m not sure with military 270’s. The original Howard Cams of Los Angeles did my original and all of them since. Now that Donny has passed away I’m not sure what I’ll do. All were ground off originals by reducing the base circle. All cam grinders understand.
I still have at least 1/2 dozen steel and 3-4 cast stockers in my stash. When Donny would get a call for one he would always call me when his sources ran out. I think a guy on e-bay found some few years back and Donny ground them all the same.
Donny did his #298 grind on a cast for my sons 311”. I liked his #380 grind for my stock head and still an extra new one in a box. I’ve set a lot of records with that grind. Steel blanks for a roller are really hard to find along with rollers. I only have one left un ground/ruffed. One thing is a steel cam needed a bronze gear.. not too easy to get but they are available.

 

update note. the 350 i run i was built for racing about 15 yrs. had in a skyhawk chassis car. 350's form 68-80 are supposed to use the same h/gskts. but not all heads are alike. breaking it in the old way with rpm's i noticed the water level was low. added more water. low again, added more water. i ended up breaking it in with an oil water mix. dropped the pan, pulled the heads and plugged the problem holes. ran that came for 10 yrs with no issues. went to a bigger (.555) cam with solids. going back(.540) to hydraulics. a lazy guy hates to pull v/cvrs and adjust rockers. that be me.
couldn't believe a water/oil mix would help. lol

 

Bumping an old thread; I'm working on a mild small block Ford build that really needs a hydraulic flat tappet and I'm worried about flattening a lobe. Don't feel any better about it after watching the video above, either, re: machining problems with lifters.

Here's my question - aren't all cam/lifter manufacturers pretty much sourcing their lifters from the same supplier? If so, should I be looking for NOS lifters from the 1980's or earlier?

Thanks

 

This is where the real problem lies. Powel Machine has it right. Geometry. If the geometry is not correct it will fail no matter what oil you use. No brand of snake oil is going to help. Sorry to the OP, but most of that video is B.S. Talks a lot and says nothing, China, Covid, bla bla bla.