First engine build: 8ba Ford Flathead

Just found your thread and subscribed. Glad you're doing well. After reading the first couple of posts it was like deja vu all over again. Definately been there, doing that.

I picked up a 8CM awhile back and upon pulling it apart found that the schmuck I got it from left it out without sealing the intake. Two cylinders/pistons stuck: one up, one down. Consequently the crank wouldn't budge. Fortunately being patient (and totally broke!), I just soaked it and let it set, going out once a week smacking the piston tops until I started getting movement. Eventually I got the crank to turn enough to get the rods and pistons out without damage.

The tough part, as everyone has noted, is getting the intake valves out. I ended up with 5 that wouldn't budge. I'm working with a reputable machine shop that is well known for their flathead work. I wanted to get the cam out before tanking so the shop just had me cut the valve stems off. They said they would be able to get them out after tanking (which they just told me the block cleaned up sweet. ). I was originally going to try and save the valve train but came to my senses and just sacrificed it. For $350 from Red's it's a no brainer.

This is my first flatty too and figuring out how to do this stuff on your own is pretty cool. Once you get the bottom end out you can get the valves out. And once you get the first valve assembly out you'll smoke through the others. I assume you're on blood thinners so I'd suggest wearing some thick leather gloves when you pull it apart. You WILL leave a lot of skin behind. There's some amazingly sharp edges inside a flathead, especially when it comes to the valve removal.

Good wrenching man. Hope you're pulling that torque wrench for real soon. I'll be watching!

 

Great thread, my compliments to you Nevala. It's very informative, and will be helpful when I am tackling this in the future. Subscribed.

 

Hey everyone,

I'm still kicking it in Cardiac Rehab, and next week I should be released to lift 20lbs, so I'm getting excited about being able to turn some wrenches soon!

Meanwhile, I've managed to pick up a couple of Stromberg 97s. I figure they're compatible with any engine I end up with, so it's a good buy. Two questions involved for these though:

1. Are there any good books on rebuilding the Stromberg 97?

2. The carbs that I have, and seem to find, all have a "D" shaped base to them. Most Flathead intakes I've seen have a really stylized carb mounting surface. Is there some sort of adapter that I'll need for the carbs or does it just bolt up, matching shape be-damned?

Thanks!

 

8BA cool! or should I say HOT what ever Im in.

 

While you are recovering, and best wishes to you on that, be assured that the K-D tool you bought is the best ever to lift out the valve assemblies. You need the third tool for flatheads, and that is the sickle shaped tool to hook the hole in the tab and lever out the horseshoe retainer clips and then you can deploy the K-D as in the patent drawings. The valve assemblies are removed in one piece that way, and the K-D has lots of power to hustle them out. No need to disassemble them in the gallery. Meantime, get well; that flathead has been around for six decades and will wait for you.

 

Count me in "subscribed". Some good info here.

 

I'm having a heck of a time trying to find the hook tool for removing the retainers. The last one I saw went for $192, and got away from me.

 

Hamber barrnone50, who posted early in this thread, says he is right up the road from you, and has everything you need to teardown. Maybe PM him and see if he has a hook you can borrow.

Also, Red's Headers sells one new for $38.

Be careful not to tear the hole in the tab; just hook into the tab and tap on the end of the tool handle with a medium ball peen hammer while pressing down. The valves found in the open position may be a bit rough, but the horseshoes will come out-not likely to be frozen what with all that oil in the valley. Soaking the guides with your favorite penetrant will help for the next step. Patience!!

Fair winds..

 

I hope you are feeling well and ready to work. I am an old guy who works on these things and when you get back into the garage work slow and putter around with the valve to see how they work. Understanding will lead to real knowledge. I also admire your respect for old tools.

 

Glad to hear your getting back at it a little at a time. Just be patient on the tools, I'm sure they'll be a little cheaper.

Michael

 

Hey David!
Let me know when you are in good enough shape to get her apart. I will come out and help.
Lux

 

Hiya!

I'm still in Cardiac Rehab, with 4 more sessions to go. I feel like I'm doing well enough to get back into the engine, so I decided to do just that. Thanks to everyone for the well-wishes again, they surely helped. Thanks to Lux for the offer of help too! (I thanked him via PM before this.)

Ok! So at the last post, I was collecting tools. I've since gone out to the garage and made some determinations:

1. The bar-type Valve Guide tool didn't want to go into the slot for pulling the guides down.

2. I really thought I needed the Hook shaped Valve Guide retainer tool to get the horseshoe shaped clips off of the Valve Guides.

The bar tool just didn't want to fit between the springs and match up with the slot for the Valve Guides. I tried quite a few times to get it to go, but no dice. It didn't help much that I couldn't really see where this slot was; I knew it was there from all the photos I had seen of the guide but I couldn't manage to get the tool into the slot correctly.

I did all sorts of things to try and pull on the horseshoe shaped Valve Guide clips. I tried:

Vice Grips - Hahaha, No.
A Craftsman Hook tool for brakes - It seemed like it was going to work, and I managed to get one to skew sideways in its slot, but it's not pulling at the right angle.
A piece of welding rod as mentioned in the Bishop Flathead book - The clips work well for straightening bent welding rod.

So I sat down and looked at the HAMB for some inspiration. The threads that came up via a Google search talked about the process I'm going to describe below.

First things first: I recommend having a lot of light on the area. I literally stuck my mag-lite into the valvetrain area so I could clearly see what was going on. I also recommend gloves or at least a long sleeve shirt to work in this area. As it was previously mentioned, I'm on blood thinners, so I have to watch out for cuts. The machined edge of the top deck are sharp; especially if you are pulling and using leverage inside the valley.

First thing I did, was put the KD-700 Valve Spring Lifter/Compressor between the bottom of the Valve Spring Retainer and a suitable place in the valley on a valve that was closed. I raised the spring (and subsequently the valve) up about a half inch.






Once the Valve was at roughly that height, I tapped the valve downward toward the block very lightly. This exposed the split keepers at the end of the valve.



Once the keepers were visible, I used a small flathead screwdriver to separate them from the valve stem. A couple words of caution to the other first-time rebuilders:

Don't stick your fingers in between the Valve Spring and the Lifter. There's a high potentiality for the Valve spring to pop off the tool, and come crashing down. I didn't get caught personally, but I did have the spring pop off of the tool, and I was glad I didn't have my fingers in the way.

When you remove the keepers, try to have a magnet or needle nose pliers within arm's reach. For a few of the valves, there are oil galleries nearby. I will admit that I have to find two keeper halves before I send the block to the machine shop. I recommend using tools to get them out of the valley if only for the safety aspect I mention above.

With the keepers removed, I could relax the valve spring and remove the compressor from the valve assembly. I then was able to slide the valve out of the valve guide, and out of the block entirely. I used a gallon size Ziploc bag to keep the parts out of harm's way.

This left the valve guide, valve spring, valve spring retainer, and valve guide horseshoe clip still in the block. I don't have pictures for this part, because my hands were pretty greasy at this point. I'll do my best to describe it thoroughly:

1. Spray the top of the valve guide with a penetrating oil. I used Deep Creep liberally here.

2. Stand on the opposite side of the engine from the bank that you're working on. I found this useful because I could easily see the valve spring I was working on.

3. Place a 17mm deep-well socket (19mm and 18mm will fit too snug, and I didn't want to risk damaging the lands outside of the valve guide) into the port onto the top of the valve guide. You can feel that the top of the valve guide is beveled, so center your socket on that roundness.

4. With appropriate eye protection on, strike the end of the socket with a hammer. The intent is to drive the guide downward and break up any corrosion that is causing the guide to stick in the block. You're not going to be able to get the guide out of the block through the valley with the spring still there. In a fresh assembly, remember that the whole thing comes out in once piece out of the top of the deck when you remove the horseshoe clip.

5. The guide should move downward a little bit, and at this point you can pull the horseshoe clip out with your fingers.

6. Continue tapping on the socket, but change up your grip a little bit: Hold the socket like you were holding a florescent bulb in your fingers. You don't want to squeeze the socket hard, just hold it enough to guide it. When I did it this way, I let the spring's rebound help push the guide out of the block.

The advantage to being on the opposite side of the block from the bank you're working on is this: When you tap on the socket, you can see the tension of the spring. If the valve guide is really loose and ready to come out, the spring vibrates with each hit. If it's still sticking, the spring compresses and compresses until there's no more room. When this happened to me, I just applied more penetrating oil and moved on to the next valve. Be cautious though, because if the valve guide gives up while you're working on a different valve guide, the spring *will* propel the guide out of the block. I had one launch and it went at least 25 feet across the garage, no joke.

I had two valve guides that stuck and by the time I got all of the others out the penetrating oil had done its job, and the last two came out. I inspected all the parts, but I don't know too much about what I'm looking at. The valves looked like the "Before Techron" pictures at the gas station, with crud buildup.

Next up, I removed the lifters. The lifters in this block were non-adjustables, and thanks to greasy hands they were a bugger to remove. I ultimately used a magnet to pull them from the lifter bores. After I had removed all the pieces of the valve train, I had 16 bags labelled and stored away.



Next up, I removed the Timing Cover. I was impressed with how clean and new looking the fiber cam gear appeared. I know that I'm not going to reuse it, and opt for a metal one on the rebuild. Because of how clean it looked though, I have to wonder where the oiling is in this section. How does the distributor and cam gear get oiled?



The cam gear had four bolts, with a clip that had tabs for each of the bolts. I bent the tabs flat with a flathead screwdriver and removed the bolts. The cam gear then came off easily.

I was looking at the distributor drive gear, and seeing how tight the press fit was on it, when the cam decided that it wanted to come out. I wasn't ready for that to happen, but it was like a mother giving birth; it was coming anyways. So I guided the cam out. Cams are heavier than I thought they would be. I did my best to guide it out straight, but I know I did let it hit places it shouldn't have. I will take more care in the installation, I promise.

With the cam out, that was the last bit of the top end I needed to remove. I rotated the engine over in its stand.



I removed and bagged the oil pan bolts and removed the oil pan, and that's where I left it last night.







I didn't want to fight the heat today, so I plan on heading back out to the garage later this evening and continuing. Closing off this post, my questions are:

1. How does the timing section of the engine get oiled. Does it look like there was a problem with oiling in my engine?

2. How do valve guide bores and lifter bores get cleaned up? Is this done only by the hot tanking or stripping process?

Thanks everybody, and I'm glad to be back working on the engine.

 

This is good stuff. Certainly one of the threads I'll come back to when I rebuild a flathead!

Thanks. Subscribed.


iPhone - TJJ App

 

Thanks for the nicely done write up!
Just happens to be that I was trying to get my valve train out today.
But I wasn't nearly as lucky. I was able to get 4 of them horse shoe retainers out and that was it. Nothing else moved. Of course my motor is in way worse shape than yours.
Keep us posted and thanks again!

 

the guide bores and lifter bores are just cleaned. dont hone them. Ive yet to see a flathead with worn bores for lifters beyond factory specs, but by all means measure them to check.

 

As an aside, a reproduction of the tool that is used for removing these are sold at Flathead Jack's - http://flatheadjack.com/

If I didn't get them out of the engine last night, I would have ordered the tool today.

 

Thanks, I'll look into that tool!
Is it possible, that my valves don't have them two piece keepers?
I just went out in the garage and looked at it again, and it seems like my valve stem gets bigger at the end...

 

Earlier blocks had valves that were mushroomed on the end. They wont come up through the guides because of this, and the guides are actually two piece. I don't think the same technique will work on a non-8BA block.

 

Damn, I was afraid that's was gonna happen...

Is the "NP-300 Valve Guide Removal Tool" the one you were talking about?
Now is the valve guide called the horse shoe clip or is the horse shoe clip the one that sits at the end of the valve (my mushroomed piece)?

EDIT: found this great tech site:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_valveremoval_tools-1.htm
Not trying to high jack your thread, just thought it might be of interest here.
Seems like I should get me the "MD-12 Valve Assembly Removal Tool" also.

 

you dont need all them fancy tools to take a 8ba flatty apart. all you really need is a valve bar(basically just a bar with a fork on the end for the spring) then just stick it in(dont be a pussy you gotta really put it in there like a man) and put it against the other side.tap the valve down lightly with a small hammer if it stuck, then just push the keepers out of the way with your finger(dont be scared!;P ) pull the valve out, then spray the guide with some penetrating oil, then after you got all the valves out put the bar closer to the guide and give it a good yank it should pop up and out. if its really stuck and you are getting new springs anyway you can yank the springs out from the bottom(itll bend em tho sometimes) then take a socket (or some wood)thats close to the size of the guide but smaller then the surface and then just tap it downward till it falls out onto the lifter.

3 tools my friend. valve bar, small wood dowel or socket, and a hammer.

to get stuck guide out on the early ones you can do the downward tap on the guide too but you gotta take the valve and pull it up all the way and then cut the head off. then use a socket. but you sacrifice the valve.....

looks good so far! btw, that bronze color on the engine only came in 1949 i believe.(mine was the same color when i got it)

 

Yeah. I should man up.

I did use three tools: The socket, hammer, and the spring lifter.

 

That's the one I was going to buy, if I didn't get them out, yeah.

On your link there, the Split Valve Guide Assy is the Valve Guide. The Valve Guide Retainer (Horseshoe Clip) is what you would use that NP-300 tool for. You'd hook the end of that tool into the horseshoe clip, lean it over the cylinder bank, and hammer on the blunt end to remove the horseshoe clip.

The link you posted has a great description for removing the assembly once you have that clip off. You'd have to make up your own mind if you want to trash the valves though.

 

What a great project! And your photography is pro! I just took apart one of those from a '52 COE and NOTHING about it was so clean. Inside looked like the ourside! Ya got a good start so keep us posted. I hope you are feeling better and your therapy is going well. Thanks for the inspiration.....

 

I found that a 16" water pump pliers worked great to pull stubborn horse shoe clips. Grab the tang and then use the pliers body as a lever against the block to rotate and pull out. If all else fails you can use a cutting torch to remove the valve stem and then drive the guide down into the valley.

 

I wish I were more thoughtful and methodical like you are. I tend to rip into things without having a clue and cause myself problems that I didn't need to. Always enjoy pulling a motor apart though and always come away wiser.

I'm really enjoying the thread. Keep it up - but watch you don't overdo it.

LT.

 

Just put an order in for the tools! Can't wait to get on it again!
Did you get a quote on hot tanking and magnafluxing the block yet?

 

Not yet, but I have a couple of places in mind to call. I just wanted a good look at the main webs to see if there was any visible cracks before sending it off for any work.

 

Like this thread, as I am currently rebuilding 3 fllatties, (don't ask it's a sickness of mine)Have some spare tools that you are looking for, as well as lots of spare parts. Send me a PM if you still need the tools
Keep up the good work and hope your health improves as your progress on the engines does!

 

Hello again,

Earlier today, I braved the heat in the garage to continue the disassembly of the 8ba. When I last left off, I spun the motor over on the stand, and removed the oil pan.

I examined the rods and main caps and found that all of the rods had been previously stamped by someone. Perhaps during a previous rebuild, maybe? Anyhow, the first thing I did was remove the oil pump. The oil pump had one bolt that held the assembly on.



After removing the pump, I checked out the rods. Each rod had a normal nut and a sheet metal lock nut. I removed the lock nuts and trashed them. When I was in the military, we never reused hardware like this. It's been distorted when it was installed, so it will never act as a good lock after removing it.



Then I began removing each rod and piston. I used a wooden hammer handle to drive the pistons out the top of the cylinders. I made sure that the rod bolts didn't scratch the crank, but I'm leaning towards looking for a Mercury crank, or a repop Scat right now.

Only one of the pistons was hard to remove - the cylinder that bore the brunt of the intake being wide open to the elements previously. The rust in the bore made it difficult to get past. I figured that at a minimum the rings are trashed on this piston, if it could be saved at all.

After removing all of the pistons, I made sure that each rod cap was placed back on the correct rod, and facing the right direction. As I mentioned before, the rods were stamped already, so I didn't need a set of stamps for them after all.





Once the pistons were removed, I removed each main cap. I made sure that all of the fasteners for each one were kept together and in the right spot. I figure that they'll need to be replaced, but I didn't want to mix them up. Each main cap had a number painted on it; probably done during a rebuild before. Before I send the engine off, I'm going to stamp the main caps. I don't think the paint would survive a hot tank / stripper.

I lifted the crank up and off, and stood it in a safe spot in the garage on the pulley end. All of the books I've read suggest making a stand for it, or at least standing it on end somewhere out of the way. I then put all the main caps back on the block. I didn't remove the bearings yet, but I probably should have.



Once the crank was removed, it was easier to see what was going on in the block. I found both valve keepers that I had previously lost down one of the oil galleries, and put them in the bag with their valves.

The block had been sleeved in all four cylinders in the left (driver's side) bank. Since one of those sleeved cylinders was the badly rusted one, I figure that I'm going to need a new sleeve in that one. I examined the webs on each main bearing closely, and I couldn't see any cracks. I will leave the final say up to the magnaflux guy though.



Now the last thing that I need to do is remove some of the smaller stuff that I missed (oil pump drive, because it's behind the arms of the stand, etc) and I have a question about that. In this picture of the front of the block is a flathead screw (under where the cam gear would normally be). On inspection, it looks like this is a cap for the tube that runs down the bottom of the lifter valley.

Should I remove this screw before having the engine block cleaned?



Anyhow, that's where it sits for now. I have to determine the best machine shop for the block in my area, and then save up the pennies to send it there. During my time on disability, my company laid me off, so things are a little tight right now. I'll get it done somehow.

I've decided that the T coupe will get a belly button engine (SBC), because the frame is already set up with SBC mounts, and I should be able to get it driveable faster that way. The flathead will be going into a different project instead:



I'll do a separate build thread for this 1929 Roadster A-V8. I've got some good historical information on the car, and while it wasn't a hot-rod in it's previous life, the old owner is in the Texas Rodeo Hall of Fame.

Thanks for watching, and I'll post more when I send the block off to the machine shop!

-Nev

 

Glad you got it all apart.
Sorry to hear about you job loss. Hope you'll find something soon!
Thanks again for taking the time to post up here for us to look at!

Could that screw be where the timing gear should get it's lubrication from?