First it was Olds, now GM has another Solomon's choice, Buick or Pontiac?

I have to agree that a big part of the problem is the unions. I'm sure I'll get flamed, but insurance costs are killing the auto companies (union) along with high(er) (union) wages. Bottom line is that if domestic companies have to pay "artificially" high wages, it's tough to compete with those who don't. I agree people need to make a decent living, but from the outside at least, it looks a little cushy to be a union member. Unions served a great purpose in their day, but I think they have written their own death sentence as more production goes out of the U.S.

P.S. GM ****s for killing Oldsmobile.

 

jus like boeings buyout they dont give a **** about any one but themselves, the only good part to a deal like those, is to see the *** kissers go out the door along with the ***es theyve kissed all those years!!! now there jus regular joes like me on the street

 

Toyota does do it...Scion, Toyota, and Lexus

 

If Buick goes all the little old ladies will have to walk.
If Pontiac goes where will all the NASA engineers work? The friggin dash and console has got more ****ons and switches than the space shuttle, and every one of them break.

 

Every time i see this come up, it reminds me of the movie GUNG HO! shows how American pride in doing things have gone in the toilet. I've been looking for a new ride for Mama and I swear of all the cars we looked at, the standouts were Japanese. GM has a nice 'vette (not interested) Pontiac has??? BUIck Nada, Caddy still has a nice car (she has a 99 STS) but to replace it at 45+ K is crazy..Spending at least 30K for an autombile is getting out of my reach. Many of us are retired or retireing and popping that kind of cash is scarry, especially when dealer warrenty is 3/36 after that its 79.95/hr labor.I was a staunch supporter of American cars but for what i've seen out there,they better change their way real soon.At least my Chevy I can fix with a wrench and not a computer.

 

"She's real fine my 409"

My little GTO....

A Corvette Stingray and an XKE.. Dead Man's Curve

(to the one and only rap beat, no melody required...)
I be a ba mofo'ker,
and I be full quix.
when I be drivin,
my fo-do G6,

 

If GM would go back to the old way they made cars.
Give you a pick of 2 or 3 cars... all with a coupe or sedan. Then, pick your engine, 2 or 3 different options. Let you decide whether you wanted all the damned bells and whistles they throw into a car. Which I don't think 90% of us really want at all. Make it simpler.
They don't seem to understand that their core market is a red blooded American that wants to be able to work on his car himself. We don't want some gussied up **** box that doesn't run rite unless you hook it up to a computer and pay the dealership $3,000 to change the oil. lol

But, then again... they can't seem to create a new design that excites anyone. I dunno how they can be so blind.

I drive a foreign car as my daily... I'd rather it were a domestic but, show me one that I can get excited about. I love the new Mustang GT but, I don't have $27,000 to spend on a car.

 

I guess you're a big corporate stock holder...
Have fun buying your next car built and sold by WalMart.

 

Are they making the new Mustang in the USA now or is it still Hecho en Mexico?

 

Yikes... that's a good question. I'm not sure... I've stopped paying much attention.
Jeez, I hope not.

 

All Buick needs is cars with portholes and Nailheads...

The American manufacturers are saddled with TONS of expenses from UAW retiree's....something the imports don't have...

I've owned two Toyotas (30 years ago)..a few MGB's, a Triumph TR-3, one Opel and a bunch of Jap bikes...what really irks me is the **** don't allow any foreign automakers to enter the Japanese market and build cars in Japan...and we welcome the little *******s into this country with open arms...Japan's idea of "fair play" was called "Pearl Harbor"....Until that changes I will never buy a Jap car again...

 

Buicks are awesome and It would be a shame for America's oldest marquee to get axed.

 

It's not the **** fault they are successful.....we gave it away.....actually our elected officials did it for us.

 

BUICK is a brand with a great history. How many other makes managed to put out designs which where cutting edge both in the thirties, fourties, fifties, sixties and seventies. One of the best looking m***produced cars of all time is the 63-65 Riviera. One of the last truely great american cars is the Boattail-Riviera.

But its several decades since the last vaguely interesting Buick was built. I dont know which group of buyers Buick target in the states, but at least here in Europe they miss the market competely in both design (still looks late-eighties), price and performance.
Just think about it. There is no reason a Riviera for 2005 shouldt be able to compete with both BMW, SAAB and Mercedes. But todays Buicks are more in tune with Kia, Huyundai and other Korean cars wich propably cost about the half and if pressed hard probably are faster on half the fuel consumption...

The brand has been dead for ages.

Pontiac is pretty much the same story (replace Riviera with GTO), but seen from over here I think the Firebird still fills a slot in the market (if developed right).

I have said it before, but I think the reason for all this ****, is the "smart" strategy where american cars are made for the homemarket, while GM, Ford etc. is owning makes like Volvo, SAAB, Opel, etc. to handle the international compe***ion. The result is american cars wich really are dolled up shopping trolleys and doesnt work very well on german autobahns so to speak...

The Dodge Magnum / Chrysler 300 is a positive approach, though. It looks good and may even be ahead of the rest designwise, -but after seeing a brand new Jaguar run circles around the "Hemi"-vertion on "Top Gear" a couple of weeks ago, I guess its mostly "all show, no go"? Compared with Buick its lightyears ahead regardless.

 

Don't forget, Toyota builds cars in KY, CA, and WV, Honda builds them in OH, BMW and Mercedes in the southeast, Subaru in IN...these are still American jobs.

The problem is healthcare and the large baby boomer group retiring...

"A major portion of the “legacy costs” are health care – providing health-care benefits to a growing population of retired employees. In 1999, GM had legacy costs per vehicle of $527; Ford’s legacy costs were $304. In 2003, those costs had risen to $928 and $619 respectively. Figures for Chrysler weren’t available.

In 2003, GM had 2.53 retired workers for every worker on the job. Chrysler had just .98 retiree per worker."

taken from http://www.facsnet.org/tools/biz_econ/detroit_auto.php

GM is only the first of all the manufacturers to feel these problems...they need to trim themselves and then start building some real cars.

 

Gm hosed it all up when each division stopped developing their own engines. I know it was more cost effective but for a while there the V6 motor that was in your late model Bonneville could also be found in a Lumina MiniVan.

 

i hope it's buick, **** ****ers ruined flint when they pulled out.





not that anyone has any obligation to keep business where they put them, etc, it's just that well... My community is poor, and on one buys anything i have for sale.

 

WHY ON GODS EARTH would you have a lumina mini van? were you sleeping on the dashboard?


it's the same as EVERYTHING all the same componets differnet body.

 

Random notes:

The Mustang is built in Flat Rock, Michigan. They build the Mazda 6 there too. Somebody listed the Mustang as world cl***. I absolutely love the car. But there's nothing world cl*** about solid rear axles. Sorry.

Have any of you sat in a new GTO? Pulled a hole shot? The car is glorious. It gets criticism for looking boring. It's a sleeper. It's for grown ups. Well, grown ups who pull hole shots, anyway. If you need bigger hood scoops and spoilers, you might be interested in Mitsubishi's offerings.

Nostalgia is wonderful. We all love old cars. But the good old days weren't always so good. New cars are more reliable, safer, and more economical. Yes, old cars are much cooler. But how many people do you know that want to spend their weekend monkeying with a carburetor? Let me rephrase that. How many people do you know, outside of the HAMB, that want to spend their weekend monkeying with a carburetor?

The price of a new Cadillac is big. The price of a new Cadillac was always big. It's an aspirational vehicle. Thank goodness they've returned the car to the position where people aspire to own it. (My advice: The CTS V-Series is best enjoyed while sliding sideways.)

When you look at the price of a new car, don't compare it to the price of a new car when you were a kid. Look at it as a ratio compared to your income. If you're not making much money, blame the President - "of the United States", not "of GM". I like to blame W for most things. You should try it sometime. It doesn't get anything done, but it feels good.

The Corvette is and always has been one of the best sports car buys on the market. You'll beat Porsches and Ferraris at the track, and you might have money left for your kid to go to college. Bang for the buck.

Look out for the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky. RWD 4-banger ragtops. Like the Brits used to do it. Only it won't leak oil. And it's prettier than a Miata.

In buying a Toyota, you trade soul for quality. Nobody is going to write a song about their Camry. You're never going to see a Corolla cross the stage at Barrett-Jackson or Pebble Beach or Billetproof for that matter.

I wish people would get over SUVs. Or at least learn how to park them.

 

Here's another random thought--

I think American car companies need to build American cars - i.e. powerful, big, heavy, styling etc. It appears to me they have been trying to out-Japanese the Japanese for years. It just doesn't work.

I suspect that the foregoing is why SUV's and trucks are so popular- more substance, traditional layout, v-8's, more "tough".

 

Jey, solid rear axles are part of their soul. I don't have a car that I wouldn't trade to have my '93 5.0 back. That thing would kick out to the right and then sway back left in a long arc before it would straighten out. I knew it's every nuance, I bought it new and drove it 110k before I wrecked and had to sell it 'cuz I could not afford to fix it. I'm going to get another, a new GT, and I'll keep it forever...solid axle and all. Those things speak to me.

 

Lutz, Cowger to give up North American duties; Wagoner takes over
DALE JEWETT | Automotive News
Posted Date: 4/4/05
DETROIT -- General Motors executives Robert Lutz and Gary Cowger are “relinquishing” their responsibilities for North America to focus on global duties, GM said Monday.

GM CEO Rick Wagoner, 52, will take over leadership of General Motors North America.

Lutz, 73, who had been chairman of General Motors North America, will focus on global product development. Cowger, 57, who had the ***le of president of General Motors North America, is to focus on global manufacturing and labor.

“Given the challenges we face in North America, it makes sense for me to ***ume control of General Motors North America’s day-to-day operations and shorten the lines of communication and decision-making,” Wagoner said in a statement.

In his statement, Wagoner said Lutz had asked to devote all his efforts on product development. “I’ll continue to value his business advice and support, but Bob’s legacy at GM will be in our future cars and trucks,” Wagoner said.

Cowger, Wagoner noted, will be changed with dealing with labor unions to try and find ways to cut costs, particularly in health care.

Rough ride

The changes come in the wake of a couple of rough weeks for GM.

The automaker has been buffeted by Wall Street ****ysts since March 16, when it slashed its earnings forecast for this year. At that time, GM executives said GM North America was the company’s biggest problem.

GM expects to lose about $848 million, or $1.50 a share, in the first quarter, excluding special items. In early January, the automaker had said it expected to break even for the quarter.

For the full year, GM expects to earn $565 million to $1.13 billion, or $1 to $2 a share, excluding special items — a dramatic reduction from its earlier forecast of $2.26 billion to $2.83 billion, or $4 to $5 a share.

The cuts prompted the major debt-rating agencies to warn that GM’s debt was in danger of falling to junk status. That downgrade could raise GM’s cost of borrowing money and prevent some financial firms from buying its debt.

Fixing North America

At the time, Wagoner and CFO John Devine said the downgrades were due to falling sales and production cutbacks in North America.

“Clearly we have significant challenges in North America,” Wagoner said then. “The rest of our automotive businesses, and GMAC, are running in line with, or ahead of, our expectations.”

Through the first three months of this year, GM sales are down 5.2 percent compared with the same period last year, at slightly over a million units including Saab. But March was good for GM, with sales up 2.3 percent to 420,442 units. GM ran a “March Madness” sales promotion during the month that offered an extra $1,000 on vehicles that had been on dealership lots for more than four months.

GM lost two executives last week, when GM China group chief Phil Murtaugh and Saab Cars USA General Manager Debra Kelly-Ennis resigned.

 

I agree with the above the GTO looks fine and runs real well, I would imagine it should kick the **** of any but the hottest Mustang, the Aussies put better brakes and handling into that car standard then Mustang would have (I've driven Mustangs and like em, but the GTO/Holden Ch***is is way more developed).
As to how they compare to new Euro cars, my problem with Monaro/GTO is how much like the big Volvo coupe they look.....