Years ago in Mexico at the Pan Am I met a guy that had about 75 years of experience with flatheads, he said they were designed to be rebuilt in the car. He told a story of arriving at the Great Race,in his 32 ford v8 roadster and realized his rings were washed out from a leaky carb, a day before the start,in the basement garage of the event hotel, he began taking his engine apart to all passerby's horror, after seeing his crank, connecting rods,oil pan, etc. laying on shop towels next to the car and all of them commenting, thats the last time that'll run, or he's done, thats the last we'll see of him. Well, you can imagine the surprise and disbelief when he pulls up to the start in a perfectly running 32 roadster, his name is Stanley T. Jones and by the end of the race everyone knew it. Tell that same story to the blown fuel dragster guys and they would say "so what"
True. Just a walk through the pits will amaze anyone unfamiliar with the current NHRA. All Top Fuel and Funny Cars are rebuilt between every run down the strip.
Turns out my pistons must be aftermarket. I put a want ad here and on Fordbarn for a standard sized 4 ring v8 60 piston, and heard back from a couple of very knowledgeable and helpful guys. Neither of them had ever heard of a stock v8 60 piston with 4 rings. Rather than buy a whole new set, I decided to let our local machine shop try welding up the damage. Told him I knew it was a long shot. He was real honest about the results. The damage was so close to the top ring groove that he couldn't save that stock edge. Had to rebuild it, and the groove ended up a little wide right there. He didn't touch the bottom of the groove, and his opinion is that the bottom is much more critical. He thinks it will be fine with the ring gap on the far side., but obviously that is my decision. I didn't ask for a guarantee on a deal like this. I have used this shop a good bit in the past, they aren't the least bit shady or incompetent. I dressed up the top and radius by careful draw-filing. I at least knew better than to chuck it in the lathe and turn it round. Didn't touch any part of the piston below the top ring. I have .009 clearance on all of the pistons, including the repaired one. I guess I'll try it. New rings are on the way.
It looks like one cylinder bank has been relieved but the other side isn't. Overall that motor has been worked on in the past and the lack of sludge tells me it is a keeper. Going to watch this one.
Flatford, I'm not sure I understand what your'e saying. Both sides look the same to me. What am I missing? When I first tore it down, I thought it was unmolested, but you are right. It has definitely been worked on in the past.
When I was in high school a buddy and I took apart dozens of 8BA engines looking for a couple crack free blocks. Never opened one that didn't have an inch or more of sludge in the valley and the pan. That one must have never run after it was assembled. Never seen such a clean engine that ran non-detergent oil.
Rich, The first pictures are both sides. Fabber, It had a little sludge in the pan, so I know it ran some. It is mounted on a stand that is just the front part of the original frame back to the trans mount. Story was that is came from a wrecked car and they were taking it around to shows and running it on the stand. Guy I bought it from got it in the 60's and never ran it.
Ok. No pictures of this, it's just an oily, non-camera friendly exercise, but I have the new sleeves in, all of the cylinders honed, new rings in, and pistons and crank back in. Went ahead and did a light hone on the valves as well, just enough to see uniform gray all the way around. Heat index down here is over 100, and I'm doing this all outside. And I set up out in the open to keep crap from falling in my work, so no shade. Damn rings got so hot I could barely hold them. Got so wonky I had to take the last two pistons back out just to make sure I didn't put any rings in upside down (and I had, just one but...). In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit that I re-used one top compression ring. My fault, I busted one of the new ones installing it. I know it's not ideal, but v8 60 rings aren't sold individually, as far as I can tell. The old rings looked new, anyway. I'll probably take some heat for that, and it would have been easy to just not mention it, but I think a big part of this site is all of us sharing our experiences. I know which hole it's in, and I'll be interested to see if it shows up on the compression test, but I bet it won't. I was worried about inserting those sleeves, but it was really not a problem. I cleaned the bores really well with acetone and a scotch-brite pad (grey), then cleaned them again and oiled them lightly. Did the same on the sleeves (they were NOS, no rust but covered in Cosmoline or something like it). I didn't freeze them or anything, just got them lined up square every which of way and tapped them down with a hardwood block. I used my biggest ball-peen hammer, but light licks. The mass of the hammer kept it from rebounding, and they just eased right in. I'm going to try to get it buttoned up the rest of the way this weekend and maybe try to fire it off sometime next week (knock on wood).
I need some help. I'm re-assembling the motor, but when I torque the L1 rod cap, the engine will not turn. I am using the same rods, caps, and bearings that were on it before. I was careful not to get them mixed up. Nothing was dropped or mishandled, so no tolerances should have changed (I did not measure the crank, rods, or bearings, since I was re-using everything). Valve train and cam are in, heads are off. The rods and caps are marked L1-L4, R1-R4. They are all matched up and installed with the numbers on the outside, facing forward, 1234 from the front. Main caps are on, torqued to 45lbs. With seven rods torqued to 25lbs and the L1 nuts snugged up but not torqued, the motor will spin with a wrench on the crank, a little stiff, but doesn't take too much effort. With even 10lbs of torque on L1, it's stuck so that I can't turn it with the wrench. Didn't try to force it with leverage or anything like that, but it sure feels tight. I have researched fitting floating rod bearings with a mallet, but should that be necessary when I am re-using everything? The motor turned by hand before I tore it down. Any help is sure appreciated, this is almost frustrating. I think I'll post a plea for help on Fordbarn, as well. Edit, forgot to mention that everything was well oiled before assembly. Duh.
Check all of your clearances with a feeler gauge or at the least Plastigauge. Something is obviously not correct.
Thank you, but Plastigauge doesn't work on free floating bearings. There is space on each side, rod and crank, which keeps you from getting an accurate reading. I think the usual thing with these is to measure everything with a micrometer and do the math for the clearances. I just can't figure what changed from before, when it was spinning freely. Guy on Fordbarn suggested dropping those two pistons and assembling just them and the bearings, torqued to spec, seeing if the bearing will spin freely. If it won't, figure out where its tight and adjust from there, always making sure they will spin on the crank. From what I can tell, "adjusting" involves tapping them with a rubber mallet to open or close the arc a bit. Sounds right up my alley. I'm going to have to dust off the old micrometer and re-aquiant myself with it.
I took the pistons/rods and bearing out and assembled both rods on the bearing, off the crank. That same rod was real tight. Came up with the following solution (the rest of this is a cut and paste from my thread on Fordbarn): Ok, you guys please tell me if this is wrong. I got the micrometer and measured both big ends of the rods that share that bearing. The one that was tight was about 7 thousandths out of round. It was wider (bolt to bolt) than it was tall (measured in line with the cylinder). I know they are relieved right at the rod/cap joint, didn't measure it there. I have some shim stock is about 5 thousandths, and some that is about 2. My solution was to make tiny little Model A style shims that fit around the rod bolts. I made sure that they didn't interfere with the bearing, flange, or other rod. Math got me close, but I had to take it apart and put it back together a few times to get it right. As it is now, torqued down, the rod won't quite fall under its own weight, but it rotates easily with light pressure. I just matched it to the other one. Put it all back together and torqued to 25 lbs, engine rotates with moderate pressure. Feels about right to me for a fresh hone and rings, but I've never fooled with a flathead before. Like I said, if there is a catastrophe looming, please let me know. I sure do appreciate the help. Wes
FORGET THE SHIM STOCK!!!! PLEASE!!!! You are looking for a disaster to happen! Remove the out-of-round Piston-rod assembly & make it "right", then put it back & enjoy your motor. keep your micrometer handy & start by GENTLY squeezing in a vise to see if it will 'correct'. if that doesn't work you may need to use a large hammer & gently tap (alternately) on the sides of the rod. The cap needs to be assembled/torqued before any "corrective actions" are taken, & carefully 'mike' after each step so you don't "over-correct". Good luck
I thought about the vise idea, but comparing it to the other rod (which is almost perfectly round), the widths are almost identical. If I squeeze it, won't I just be moving the problem 180 degrees? I'm thinking that, at some time in it's life, somebody ground a little off of the cap. With the shims, it measures out almost identical to the other, with everything torqued up, of course. Seems to me I can either shim it or send it out and have it bored. I'm not doubting you, but could you explain why the shim stock is a disaster? Babbitt motors use this without any issues, seems to me this is kind of the same?
With the shim that leaves room, albeit a very small gap, that could spin the bearing. Best bet at this point would be to send it out and have it trued then if need be insert an oversized bearing. That may not be cheap but would be the safest.
The way this thing is set up, two rods share one bearing set, so the rods move on the bearing, which spins on the crankshaft. Warhorse, you and drctrV-8 may have thought I shimmed the bearing itself, which I agree is a bad idea. I put the shims between the rod and cap, right at the ends where the bolts are. I drew a quick picture, because I don't think I'm explaining it well.
Thank you, Circle, but since my rod is for all intents and purposes undersized, if these shims are a bad idea, I'll try getting a machine shop to true it up first.
My fear is that if you cannot get it perfectly round then it will bind, wipe out the bearing, score the crank, possible catastrophic failure that leaves you with nothing. I would personally get it bored, or resized would be a better term.
V8-60 rods were commonly all replaced when rebuilding one of these engines in their normal life. Even today, sets of remanufactured rods are not unusual to find available. The full floating bearing actually was wearing the rod big end bore as well as the crankpin. Not one of Ford's better ideas. If one of yours is that bad, I'd sure want to know how the other seven measure for size and roundness. I would recommend taking the lot to the machine shop for accurate measurement and re-sizing as might be needed. Doing anything marginally when building one of these is an exposure to a very expensive lesson.
No, I did not consider that you were intending to shim the bearings, but rather the rods like was done on Model "T" & Model "A". My concern was the distorted 'big-end' of the rod & that such shimming was only adding to the problem : My suggestion was to restore the roundness & regain the desired dimensions so you could reuse your original parts, as you indicated this was a 'budget operation', & that you wanted to conserve resources.
I'm getting more of an education than I'd expected from this thread. The bottom edge of this piston looks like it's taken a little abuse, at least when compared to more modern engines. But I'm guessing that the crank doesn't really get that close to the piston skirt at BDC. Or was it just a matter that it was considered a non-critical area of the piston as far as needing to be "pretty looking"?
Thank you. And then take them to be resized and you will not have to worry as much about a failure and put our minds at ease for such an iconic engine living on..
I know it's been a while. Work, lots of rain, more work.. Anyway, I got it all buttoned back up, poured in some new oil, which poured right back out the cotter pin hole under the transmission. "Dammit" says I, "You knocked that cork gasket off of the back of the pan when you put it back on". Dropped the pan, checked the gasket. Looked OK. Smeared a little silicone goop on it anyway and put it back together. Still pours out of the cotter pin hole. I'll spare you the complete play-by-play. When I cleaned the sludge out of the pan, I exposed an invisible crack under the little wall that separates the engine side of the pan from the transmission side. Cleaned it and soldered it, problem solved. Tried to start her up. Got it to fire, but just stumbled along and shot blue fire from the carb. Previous re-builder got the plug wires crossed up on the passenger side of the distributor. Straightened that out and: That was cold, needed some choke, but I didn't want to run it much longer without a radiator, anyway. I did have the bottom water jacket outlets plugged and the block full of water, though. At least it's alive.
Doesn't sound like it hitting on all eight. Don't quote me, but an old timer told me that they used to remove the sleeves and run 3 inch Cushman Husky pistons
Definitely wasn't hitting on all 8. It smoothed out pretty good once I got some water running through it and let it warm up. Still have some issues to work out, but I'm encouraged.
The Jalopy Journal
