I'm installing the Flat-O-Matic in my '51 Sedan and have run into a problem. The kit rocks, let me first say that. Anywho, when the motor starts it seems that the starter is not disengaging from the flexplate, so the motor is dragging the stater. I started up the motor a second time after that, revved it up to see if it would let go...no use, then I pulled the lead to the selenoid to make sure it wasnt under power...nope, didnt work either. I called up Flat-O and he gave me some pointers to look for, like armateur length, tooth count...etc. All are exactly as he said they are. Now, my su****ion is the spring that pushes the gear away from the starter itself, perhaps its too weak. If you stand the starter up on end with the drive facing the ceiling the spring just barely holds the gear up, but if you lay the starter on its side and slide the gear up towards the starter it will not recoil back. So, my question is this after all this hot air: Should the spring between the gear and the starter body actually recoil the gear back if its laying on its side, or is just there for looks or something?
before I pulled the dead flathead from my truck it was doing the same thing your describing so I just pulled it out and cleaned it up and it worked fine, found out a day or so later I had major internal problems with the motor so yarded it out in favour of some more modern go power
If that spring won't push the gear back its either bad or the shaft gummed and stickey, pull it off and give it a check, it should slide freeley.--TV
The starter is a brand new rebuild with only 3 cranks on the motor on it. The shaft is pretty clean and it does move freely, just seems like the spring is not doing its job pushing it away from the starter. I'll order up a new starter drive kit and see if it makes a difference. Thanks!
Lead, it sounds like the spring is too weak. Or the worm is not leting the pinion "roll" back. One other thing; (which I'm sure Gene advised you about) is the starter mount plate (the opening where the starter mounts) parallel to the back of the block. Some of the mount plates have a slight angle to them and will force the starter pinion into the ring gear which causes the pinion to hang up. Start with a new "recoil" spring, clean the worm, and see if that fixes the problem.
Dave, thanks for the advice. Yes, I did check the starter plate, just as Gene advised and I made sure it was a plate that true to the block, not angled like some of them end up. Did the whole measure around the hole to the table bit, so I know its not the plate. I'm betting on that spring. Wasnt that a problem for Flathead owners, the spring busting and the gear not disengaging on the road and what not??
Pretty sure that it is called a Bendix Spring. And yes it is a common ailment for flatheads. I thingk that a spare bendix spring is pretty much an essential spare to carry! Adam F
[ QUOTE ] Pretty sure that it is called a Bendix Spring. And yes it is a common ailment for flatheads. I thingk that a spare bendix spring is pretty much an essential spare to carry! Adam F [/ QUOTE ] Your right. (was still on my first cup of coffee!) My starter rebuilder tells me the Bendix springs were also prone to losing tention after a while. He replaces them on every flathead starter rebuild he does no matter what they look like.
I'll be sure to order up a second spring if the one I get today fixes the problem. . . I sure dont want to end up stranded if I snap a spring someplace on the road. I ordered up an entire kit yesterday, which should include a new gear and both springs, I'm betting that it will fix the problem. Thanks for all the help and advice!
One other possibility you should consider - and I'm pushing the limit of my info here - there are two different flywheels/flexplates. One has the ring gear 1/4" closer to the block than the other. Since the starter pulls the gear into the ring from behind, you need to have the flexplate that sits close to the block. If the mounting plate for the starter is too thick it'll cause this condition. Check with the guys on msn 32-53 or fordbarn for specifics. Gene is right - the starters are all the same. I'd bet you have a clearance issue rather than spring trouble.
[ QUOTE ] One other possibility you should consider - and I'm pushing the limit of my info here - there are two different flywheels/flexplates. One has the ring gear 1/4" closer to the block than the other. Since the starter pulls the gear into the ring from behind, you need to have the flexplate that sits close to the block. If the mounting plate for the starter is too thick it'll cause this condition. Check with the guys on msn 32-53 or fordbarn for specifics. Gene is right - the starters are all the same. I'd bet you have a clearance issue rather than spring trouble. [/ QUOTE ] If LEAD purchased the whole kit from Flat-O-Matic, he would have received the right flex plate. However you bring up a situation that I experienced with one of their kits I used. A. Be certain that the side marked "Faces back of engine" IS facing the back of the engine. Because my flex plate had been stress relieved; the instruction markings on it had been burned off. So the plate got installed backwards. B. The spacer provided is actually a "stiffner washer" and should be on the transmission side. Rushing to try and solve the clearance problem I put the "stiffner washer" BETWEEN the flex plate and the crank. The problem just got worse. If possible mount the adaptor ring, flex plate and the starter mount plate before bolting the trans to the adaptor. If everything is OK you should be able to reach in and turn the starter shaft by hand. If you can't, then some further investigation is needed. I purchased one of Gene's early kits and was one of the ones that discovered the "angled starter mount plate problem." In checking for plates that were parallel I must have collected 30 - 40 plates. There were starter mount plates that were THICKER at the starter mount location; but I never found any that were FURTHER AWAY FROM THE BACK OF THE ENGINE.
Dave, yes, the entire kit was purchased direct from Gene. I spoke with him before I ordered the kit to make sure that we both covered our bases. He advised me over the phone about the angled starter plate. I purchased the half bellhousing and plate from Streamline (hamber VapHead), and he verified the correct plate before shipping, I verified after I got it and just tonight I measured it again on the engine as best I could and everything looked kosher. Before I installed the kit I mocked it up with the half bellhousing, the flexplate/starter plate and starter, so that I could see from the transmission side if the gear would disengage, this was of course suggested in the instructions. When I mocked it all up and tightened everything down I backed the gear up the bendix ***embly as far as it would go towards the transmission. There was a good 1/2" of clearance between the gear and the flexplate at that point, so I figured I was good to go. So, lets fast forward now, here is a little update of what happened tonight: Today my girlfriend installed a brand new bendix ***embly while she was at work today at the shop. The kit included the gear, recoil spring and the big *** spring that goes on the end of the whole shebang. I phoned Gene earlier in the week about the problem and he stated that the armetur length with the bendix ***embly for the starter should be 12.5" and to check the tooth count on the gear, as it should be exactly 10. Before I installed the starter, I sprayed down a thin coat of black on the gear so that I could get a pattern from the flexplate on the gear so that I could see where the flex plate was engaging. I reinstalled the starter with the same problem, once the engine starts it drags the starter, thus the gear is not recoiling back once the engine starts. So, I tried revving the motor up a few times, which did nothing. I got back under the car and pulled the starter to look at the gear to see what the pattern looked like. The pattern shows the flex plate wear, which is about 3/8" thick on the gear about 1/8" up the gear from the side closest to the starter. I looked again at the instructions to make sure that the flex plate was installed correctly. As stated in the instructions, the flex plate is installed with the beveled side of the teeth facing away from the engine. Now, I could not visibly see the bevel, but I could reach in and feel it. [ QUOTE ] B. The spacer provided is actually a "stiffner washer" and should be on the transmission side. Rushing to try and solve the clearance problem I put the "stiffner washer" BETWEEN the flex plate and the crank. The problem just got worse. [/ QUOTE ] I asked Gene on the phone about this earlier in the week. He said that if the spacer was not used at all, instead of between the crank and the flexplate, that the bolts from the torque converter could end up hitting the cam door on the back of the block. I installed the spacer between the flexplate and the crank, as the instructions stated. Gene said that was the correct way to do it on a late flathead because of the interference with the cam door. What ended up being the solution Dave? using the spacer between the flexplate and torque converter and finding a good starter plate? Does 1/8" up the gear for the engagement on the flexplate sound too far up that gear? Thanks for the info guys! If I end up having to move that spacer plate to the other side of the flexplate I'll take my digicam and make a tech post out of it for future reference of those going the shoebox/flat-o route. I'll also send a nice copy out to Gene, who bless his heart made a good adapter but the instructions for the 49-53 8BA installation could probably be helped with photos and what not.
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