Flathead Cooling Dilemma (Lessons Learned)

I think I would see how far I could throw that dizzy.

 

Is it possible for you to try a single manifold with a single carb on it for testing purposes? That distributor receiving the goofy signal from two carbs (with diminished vacuum, and no, they don't add up to one full vacuum) can't be helpful. Might even run better. Wayno

 

Pigpen,
I did say a drop, not half a bottle. I don't have any problems with Flatheads either, but I have had in the past and probably will in the future. Based on Murphy's Law, you may too. You'll notice to, I never even started on the cracked head and/or block factor that can come into play. I read the posts and offered a few generallities with dead reaconing reasoning. Take it for what its worth or p*** it by.

As for voodoo, I probably drank water from Texas that had more octane in it than that squirrel piss gas we have now. When you going to uncap that Texas T.

 

Going to post a link to Jegs with regard to Redline Water Wetter so you can do a little reading on what I'm saying.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=131017&prmenbr=361

 

It's also very possible that you have several little problems adding up to one big problem.

I doubt the people of Arizona in the 40's used washers in their daily drivers.

All the flathead people that I respect say the stock 8-BA dissy won't work with multiple carbs.

I personally don't think you can blame the electric fan until you drive it. If it runs cool down the road but overheats in the driveway, then you have a fan problem. If I read it right you haven't got that far yet.

I set the timing by advancing it until it wants to ping when lugging it in high gear. Back it off until it pulls without pinging. Not very scientific, but it's worked for me.

I got lucky. My 8CM runs 180 all day long in July with an old Mech. Mallory, 2-97's, 160 thermostats and a mechanical fan pulling 95 degree air through a non-pressurized stock 32 radiator.

I lost a thread from the Hamb that I had saved. One of the guys on here had a 35/36 P/U that was over heating. Lots of suggestions from several flathead sites. He jacked up the timing and it went away. It may not be your solution, but it could be one of the straws on the camels back.

 

I know very little about flatheads, but, The old timer that told me about the washers instead of thermostats told me "We used to run tin plates with 5/16" holes in them in each side of the old flathead V8s. On your modern V8, since you only have one thermostat, you have to double the size of the opening, to 5/8"."

The idea of the holes in the tin plates is to slow down the water flow. If the hole is too big it won't slow down the water enough to make a difference. Going on what the old timer told me, the holes in your washers are too big? I know if you take out the guts of a thermostat on the "moderen V8" it will over heat because the resulting opening is too big. Gene

 

Stock dizzy with dual carbs?

My advance vacuum is going to the venturi's on the dual carbs. Yes, I know the issues relating to vacuum advance on a dual carb setup.
I have not discounted any theories yet and may very well go to an electronic dizzy here. I thought I'd try this setup first before resorting to new technology.
My experience with late model flatheads is zilch. But I have been reading quite a bit on this issue. Our own Hamber here...286merc has written a discertation on the adaptablility of this setup. I do respect his experience and know how regarding carburation and ignition on these engines. I was going to try this setup before going with any other ignition.
For those who haven't read it yet, go to the techomatic. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11892&highlight=venturi

Here's a quick glance..... Just a small portion of it.

The KEY to using 94s by 286Merc

Lots of confusion still remains about using Holley 94's and vacuum only distributors on 8BA's and early Y blocks.
I'll just talk about the 1948-54 8BA style distributor.
Over 2 years ago I got into a discussion with an expert on another forum who positively stated that you could not run dual 94's and a stock distributor. When I said I better take my setup apart then all hell broke loose. A few others keep referring to an outdated 1954 magazine article like it was some type of gospel.

First of all there are over 17 varieties of the 94 style family, starting back in 1938 with the Chandler Grove and ending with the 1957 272 Y block for Ford production. Generic parts store replacements were available well into the 70's as the Holley 2100 and 2110. The Y block versions differ from the true 94 (which is the .094" venturi diameter) since they have a 1.0" and 1.062" venturi and often have a 1 or 1 1/16 marking on the side. There was even a 1 1/8" aftermarket version available that was quite common on hopped up VW's. The Lincoln V12 had a LZ casting which was also a 1" venturi. Bendix and Stromberg even got into the act, a Stromberg 94 clone actually has 97 on the side and is often found on EBay selling as a true 97!
I always suggest that users start with a matched pair of casting models that have the vacuum port on the lower right side of the bowl; you can not use the earlier versions without a vacuum port with the stock 8BA distributor. These carbs carry bowl ID's of 7RT, 8BA, 8RT, EAA, EAB, EBU, EBV, ECG, 2100, 2110 and probably some I missed. If you decide to use any of the Y block carbs then remove and plug the spark control valve in the base.

yes, dual 94's and a stock vacuum distributor are compatible a good many times. Dont expect to go racing or expect reliable fire beyond 4000 rpm; this is still a compromise since the distributor is not receiving the vacuum signal it was designed for. If you want a bit more advance (or reduced lack of as the distributor runs backwards from the typical vacuum operation) then turn the spring pins on the top of the plate with pliers. They are an eccentric and the spring tension is adjustable.
There are numerous conversions and aftermarket ignition options available; it just takes time and money.

The above was a compilation of over 45 years of using these carbs on flatheads and overheads.

 

When I was on the Kitty Hawk over in the gulf, they somehow managed to cross the fresh water pipes with the JP-5 (Jet fuel) pipes. The coffee always tasted like kerosene and had this s*** floating on top. When I came back to the US of A, the coffee here just didn't taste right, until I moved to Texas. Now all is well. If they uncork the Texas Tea, only Bush and his cronies will benefit. I had to work for one crooked Texas oilman during Nam. Now the boys are working for another. A pox on all of their houses!

pigpen

 

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no two engines, even if built identically, ever behave exactly the same way. The overwhelming bulk of my engine experience is on small-block Fords with some dabbling in FE and a fair bit of flatheads (though I haven't built one in ages, just tinkered). I've had SBF engines that wanted no thermostat, gutted thermostat, hot thermostat, cold thermostat, big radiators, small radiators, etc. You get the idea - each one was different even if the rest of the "tune" on the engine was similar to others like it. (FWIW - I don't think burping is required UNLESS you're running stats - no trapped air insulating the thermostat & preventing it from opening until boilover - I prefer to drill a small 3/16 hole in the stats instead of burping)

The real story is that there are so many things that can contribute to overheating & I believe in a properly functioning system, thermostats are best. However, due to different modifications, some variations may be required.

Personally, I think you've got a small combination of issues - I'd start with easy stuff (which you've been doing) & check for combustion gas in the coolant. Have you retorqued the heads?

Next - ignition. Play with timing first. But you could buy all new, find an old-style mallory, or even convert a Chrysler or Chevy distributor. But I think the old 8BA load-a-matic can be too challenging to get working correctly - especially with multiple carbs - although Carl has an incredible amount of experience & I respect his opinions on the subject.

Last - carburetion. Did you go too lean on your jets? Too tall on your powervalves? What are your plugs telling you? For troubleshooting, it may indeed be best to pop a single carb on there & start from a "known" configuration.

I don't know that I added much new here - stay focused. But if it were me, I'd also see how far I could throw that stock dizzy!!

 

I don't think it's the advance YET..it's going to be the advance as soon as the thing goes on the road, but idling in the garage the initial setting should carry it. Yes, springs can be fiddled, but the problem here is that the ported vacuum remains strong, the venturi vac is incredibly weak, and it probably isn't even starting to pull any venturi signal until rather high RPM! Another problem is that you cannot check advance on the running engine like with most designs--you need either a really elaborate on car thrash or a distrib machine AND a good knowledge of YOUR engine's venturi and vac pull, NOT Ford specs for a stocker. Anybody here know your venturi draw and what RPM it starts at, eh??
The stats, according to Yunick, are most important in creating a head of pressure in the block in order to slightly increase resistance to boiling at localized hot spots, which in most engines produce little localizerd flash boiling points with only vapor touching the metal even in engines that aren't overheating overall! One of his clues to this before he started systematic studies was spots on cylinder walls caused by welding of bits of ring material...
I would say test on the road to decrease fan problems, but I think it will have different problems there with mid range advance being kaput. I do believe in starting new engines with a single good Ford 94 for shakedown purposes. Even with a stocker, I would suggest a standard Navy flotation test to see if distrib is fully functional.

 

I love your sense of humor Bruce!
Plans are to spend some time on it this week and the three day weekend holiday.
Should have more info by then.
I'm getting antsey and ready to drive this thing.

 

Seriously, I think you can road test at low RPM and fairly low throttle opening. Once it's sorted out there, then try faster--I think it's not gonna work, but who knows. And look over the adjust process for the Loadamatic in any '49-53 manual--you might want to experiment. Just don't work from stock pressure drop specs, as yours will likely be only a fraction of that at full blast. I think getting the full throttle curve better will screw up your part throttle curve in the other direction, but flatheads do tolerate excess advance better than the other...

 

32V8,

I'd have to honorably disagree with you on this point. I thought about this problem exactly as you describe above and have run an 8BA without thermostats. So when I had the radiator rebuilt, I installed it and took out the thermostats. My engine overheated. I installed thermostats, and the motor stopped overheating. That was the only change, adding thermostats.

I basically ran this experiment for my own understanding and in the end realized what we all know already. The heat transfer between cooler AIR and the hotter surface area of the radiator is what cools the water. Water does not cool an engine, the heat transfer described above does, and to make it simpler: we're dealing with an air cooled engine. Water only acts as a medium to move heat around and water loves giving up its heat.

The water does have to hang out in the radiator longer to allow this heat transfer to be more affective, to allow air to cool the engine.

The engineers at the factory know what they're doing, and most times when I try to outguess them I end up being wrong. The thermostats are there to slow down the flow and aid in initial heat up.

Mike

 

BVMike

Congratulations, go to the head of the cl***. Finally, someone that understands the principles of engine cooling. Gold star *

You can screw with the timing and the carb all you want but the cooling system is what is going to take the majority of the heat away from that engine. The exhaust pipe also removes heat from the engine, if it gets restricted it will overload the cooling system and cause over heating.

Carbs and timing are for doing the burning INSIDE the combustion chamber. Cooling systems and exhaust remove the used and excess heat from the burning area. Incorrect timing will put a 'load' on your engine, which in simple terms is like someone jumping on top of the piston just before it comes to the top of the bore. I've seen flatheads with FOUR Different Sizes of pistons run fine and turn over 130 mph, they're just air pumps, GIGO.

Clearances have more of an effect on heating then timing has. I haven't seen anyone suggest that the clearances of the rods, pistons, crankshaft, may be too tight and that is where the extra heat is coming from. Maybe all the cool running engines are clearance properly and all the hot running engines are not clearanced properly!!! How's that for controversy.

 

PeteJoe

I went back and looked at your original post and I think I found your problem. If you look at the picture of the pretty flathead engine that you've got, the problem is quite obvious when you blow up the picture.

You ain't got no rad hoses on that engine!!!

 

Well Al, Seems you always forget the minor stuff.
Hows this !!!!!

Success ! Thanks to you guys !
Final ***y pic after last nights run. Check out the fuel lines.

 

Spent 5 hours on the flatty last night. I'm so happy I could just ****!

Drained out the radiator, pulled the temp sensors off the heads and started a very slow trickle into the system allowing the air to be burped. Installed the sensors and advanced the timing to around 7 degrees and then the rpm increase was beginning at idle. Checked the point gap and it remained at .016.
Started the engine with the cap off, finished the radiator fill slowly and patiently waited......................................
Until after about 12 minutes and disgustedly watch the water burp and go the 212.

Shut it down and again slowly filled the radiator taking about 1/2 hour at the rate of trickle. Shut the hood..... and for the first time took the flatty out of the garage and onto the road.........

Drove it to the other garage about 15 miles away and that damn thing stayed at 180 degrees the whole way.


The biggest thing I'm tickle about is reaction of the advance to the multiple carb venturi vacuum.

I about ****.... I was really expecting poor performance and having to change over to mechanical advance. But this thing is working perfectly with great torque and fuel feed throughout the rpm and speed ranges.
So well, I accidently chirped a tire after hitting some gravel.
Just tickled to death

I feel the single fan at the bottom as explained before are some of the issues with the heating problems at idle, Next move.....
Water wetter, another fan at the top, stats, and maybe a 4 lb cap.
What can I say !!!!!!!
Thank you guys !!!
I appreciate all your effort and help.

It must be the these loops increasing the vacuum FOR THE ADVANCE !!! THANKS AGAIN !
( jUST KIDDING)

 

Excellent news!!

 

Petejoe,

Great news! I've probably followed this post more than most being the Flattie lover I am. I did a non-scientific study on t'stats a couple of years ago. Much hot water/cold water testing. Calculated areas of hoses on 59 motors vs. 8BA motors (smaller hoses on 8BA) Found that I was happiest with Robertshaw model 330 high flow t'stats. Reminder: thermoststs are not always full open or full closed but somewhere in between (we don't really know where.) Tests on the Robertshaws show stat begins to open near rated temp (I.E. 160 or 180 or 195.) When I tested the 160's they began to open at ~160 degrees and became fully open at ~180 degrees. When I tested the 180 stats they started to open at ~180 degrees but didn't reach full open until ~202 degrees. When fully open the area of the opening exceeds the area of the 1-1/2" 8BA hoses on either of the stats. Part numbers for the 160 is 330160 and for the 180 is 330180.

I calibrated my stock temperature system so that my dash gauge reads right in the middle at 160 degrees. It reaches about 3/4 when the temperature is 180 degrees. I now know that when driving if the temperature gauge goes above 3/4 my actual temp is around 180 and the stats are wide open.

At idle my blown engine runs about 170 degrees in the shop after 20 minutes. I have a Perma Cool 2850 cfm electric fan with thermo switch that is set at 170 degrees (top of radiator temperature.) This fan is a puller with about an 18" blade and moves a ton of air. I also have a toggle switch under the dash in case the thermo control fails.

I'm no expert by any means, just trying to p*** along good info as I understand it.

 

I'm very happy to hear that you burped your baby and fiddled with her timing so she doesn't have the "croop" anymore. I'm a fixin' to do the same thing on my '41 with 8BA. Pic's soon.

pigpen

 

Looking forward to your project pigpen!
With your space issues too....Find yourself a big sum***** fan.

Blown49, Sounds like a pretty scientific way of checking out stats to me....
Where are you finding these high flow jobbies??

 

That engine sure does look purdy!! Happy to hear than its running sweet. Take care! AL

 

__________________
Petejoe,

Robertshaw was bought out several years ago by Cooper Standard. I have talked numerous times with Cooper. You used to be able to purchase thru Autozone but for the last year or so Autozone only handles the Mexico brands and have dropped the Cooper line. I e-mailed Cooper today as to the name of the Auto parts stores that are now carrying their line of stats.

I'll post and PM you when I get the info back.

Blown49

 

Pretty engine! You do nice work.

 

Congrats! The engine looks great.

I would still bet that putting thermos in alone would help your idle cooling problem. When you're running down the road, the air flow has increased to keep up with your water flow, so you get a cooler motor. At idle the air flow is not keeping up with the water flow, so you get a hot motor. My theory at least, your results may vary.

So I have a question. Where did you get those upper hoses with the dual diameters? I solved the late model heads to early model radiator diameter problem in a different way.

Mike

 

Thanks Mike! thanks for your, Bruces, pigpens, alittle's help too!

Well, I don't know how many would repeat my return hose diameter fix.
Bent some exhaust tubing to the shape you see. Would have liked a better bend but with those tools you can only bend at so much of a radius.
Then made a trip to my favorite parts house and went back to the radiator hose rack.....1000's of them.
After about an hour of searching I found a very long elaborate hose with many bends....maybe late model???
But it just so happened to have the correct diameter transition that was needed. I am ashamed to say it but two of those hoses cost 60.00.
Well, I guess if I was looking for a cheap and easy way to power the 37 I would have a smallblock in there. Ya know, us flathead guys are a bunch of wierd people.
How'd you do yours???

 

Damn, and I was hoping for an easy to order part number!

Here's how I did it. I kept all the old plumbing and made my own spacer where the early model, large diameter hose meets the late model thermostat housing/water neck. I too hunted at a parts house. I found a hose that fit around the OD of the late model water neck and inside the ID of the early model hose.

Once I found this I glued the spacer hose to the inside of the larger hose, and put that whole ***embly onto the water neck.

Notice in the following pic that a fat ol' hose is attached to the head. This is possible because of the spacer deal I did.

FYI, if you look closely you can see the top of a large pusher fan I installed ahead of the radiator and behind the grill. Do you have enough space for this kind of setup? I did't push any nylon doohickeys through the radiator, I made mouting brackets and attached the fan to that. Learned this the hard way from a previous car. The fan is controlled by a manual switch on the dash. I know you're thinking about fan issues and thought I'd bring it up.

Mike

 

Beautiful engine and compartment!

Hose setup looks good. If you're really serious or anyone else for that matter, about getting a part number. I still have the remainder of the hose and will look for it and relay the part number.

 

Petejoe,

Name of stat is now Prestone brand (who would've guessed?) Available thru Parts America auto stores. They have a web site www.partsamerica.com that you can order thru. On their website ther is a search window at the top of the page. Type in 330160 (160 degree) or 330180 (180 degree) and you will find @ $12.99 each. I don't have Parts America stores near me in rural southern Ohio but maybe you do and could walk in and buy them. I have included a picture of one of the 160 degree stats wide open that I took, when it was hot, during my testing. Pan no attention to the wire coming off of it (it's not electrical) that I used to seusend in the water.

Hope this helps

 

Duhhhhhhhh! Last sentence Pan=Pay....seusend=suspend

(must of been in too much of a hurry!) Never professed to be a typist anyway.