What a pisser, I've started ***embling my flathead and was installing my first cast iron head. Let's not do the studs versus bolt argument, I've decided on studs. I'm using a Speedway kit with studs, hardened washers and nuts. I installed the studs after Permatexing them with the white, teflon thread sealer taffy like product and put anti-seize on the shafts. I started torquing them in the sequence beginning at 40 pounds. When I started to go over it again with the torque increased, number 1 bolt broke loose. I've removed everything from that side and the threads on that hole are shelled out so I will be heli-coiling it, obviously. My question is, do any of the old flatheaders have any tips for inspecting or testing the threads before getting to this stage of ***embly? Being as number one and two holes reside over the center exhaust port, are they more susceptible to shelling out the threads? If the center holes are more susceptible than the ones over the water jackets, I'm considering heli-coiling them now before I go back to ***embling. Any thoughts or theories on the metallurgy being different from years of use on the holes over the exhaust port? I know that maybe I'm grasping here. Thanks in advance for any tips. I read the archives but maybe I missed something on inspecting the bolt holes and/or testing them. Lou.
One basic test is wobble...tighten in studs by hand with no goo on them for test. In a good original hole, there will be no wobble--stud will be vertical and solid. If hole has been cleaned with a standard tap, there will be slight wobble. Ford used a cl*** 3 (I think it's called) thread on block with normal studs. Unfortunately, most have been tapped as poart of cleanup...I did that to a few when I didn't know. If major wobble, you will have trouble. Be su****ious of studs here, too. If fit is sloppy, test holes with best original stud you have. Metallurgy probably varied from the factory, with all the complexities of the casting, and effects of possible violent overheating could well be a factor, but most likely problem is ac***ulated corrosion and damage by mechanics. Helicoil time...
Ask here, I'm sure someone there knows. http://groups.msn.com/FordFlathead1932to1953/messageboard.msnw?pgmarket=en-us
Thanks for the tips. I went out and bought my 7/16 X 14 heli-coil kit this morning. It only came with 5 coils so I'm now going to look for a big box of 'em. I figure if I have them then I won't have to use them. Ain't that the way it works?
Hey, 49! You were headed for the archives to research further on you block drawing posters (which everyone here should have as living-room wallpaper!) Any chance of digging for the deck prints to see if thread specs can be found???
Never got there Bruce. Other things got in the way (like lack of travel funds) but still hope to make the trip in the fall. I'll put this on my list of thingstofindoutifIcan.
It would be interesting just to know what the prints look like...I would ***ume there must be many pages of high density stuff to flesh out a block design...
You can use the drill and tap from the helicoil kit to make yourself a tool to do the entire operation. By making this tool first you will be able to get all the repairs in straight. This is very important to have them all 90 degrees to the deck surface. You will need a small piece of aluminum, preferably 3/4" thick and 1.000" wide and about 6"-8" long. You drill a hole with the helicoil drill first, this will be used to drill all the bad holes first, then do a duplicate hole but tap this one with the helicoil tap. You now have guide hole for both the drilling and tapping operation. You can put either one of these holes at each end. Along the center drill some 1/2" holes in such a spot that you can bolt the fixture to each head bolt hole in the block as you line up the one end hole that you drilled previous with the helicoil bit. Not the tapped hole. You'll probably need a few holes to reach the bad ones. If you have a machine nearby they can slot the entire center length for you. If you can do the slots it's an easy repair. Just use a 7/16" bolt and flat washer to clamp the fixture to an adjacent head bolt hole when drilling and tapping for the repairs. I'll put a picture of what I'm explaining but mine are set up to use bushings. Metalpusher
My flathead has one hole repaired with this type of insert. http://fulltorque.com/fft.htm under torque the tapered outer threads pull the parent metal toward the bolt (hard to describe but works) they also have the same type threaded bolts to repair cracks which pulls the crack together.
I think using the cast iron head as a drill guide would be a decent jig if you don't have the one "metal" described. The helicoil drill is 15/32" on the one I used (9/16-12 tap) kinda like the ones vergil posted. TP
I had this same thing happen when re***embling my DB engine. DB headbolts are blind, do not go into water jacket. I made a drill block like was suggested here and had no problem with straightness. I also made a block the same height as the head and pulled the rest of the headbolts up to torque to test the threads. I've since heard on the HAMB about Time Serts. They use an STI tap, just like Helicoils, but are a solid insert. I've used them in a few other applications, but haven't had the need in block repair yet. Buy a new drill bit so it doesn't drill your tapdrill oversized. Take your time.
There used to be someone selling flathead repair studs with normal top and slightly bigger than stock threads in some metric size at bottom. Website vanished...are parts still out there anywhere??
Thanks again to all for the info. Vergil, I'm contacting FullTorque to find out how to get some of their inserts. I've got the characteristic flathead cracks on the horizontal middle holes left and right of center that run from the water holes so those inserts sound like the way to go on that. Before catching up on this thread, I grabbed up an old head yesterday to use as my drill guide for the heli-coil repair as suggested. I think it went OK. Before I start to go back together again, I will do a thorough "wobble test" as Bruce suggested. I don't like the feel on one of those holes mentioned above so I think one of the inserts Vergil suggests is the way to go there. Thought I would be able to get the thing stuck in the project car this week but that ain't happenin'. I'm thinking that it's projects like this that inspire us to yell at the kids, "PATIENCE"!
Anyone looking for more information on "Time - serts"; check here .... http://www.timesert.com/index.html
Digger, thanks to you, too. I can see there is real potential for my going broke buying these different insert kits. I was just getting ready to question how the time-serts will sit flush when I saw the countersink tool included. Good thing about these is that Fastenal carries them and I have one of their stores just down the road. Things are looking up. Again, thanks to everyone for the info and help. Lou.
Uh, one more question that may have already been addressed. The Time-Serts are available in cold rolled or stainless. Does it matter which kind I used on the flathead? Also, FYI for others looking, Fastenal is listed as a distributor but when I just called I think they thought I was from outer space. I found some listed on the 'bay, but of course no 7/16 by 14's.
I use the cold rolled inserts. Here is another dealer that should be able to help. http://www.enginetech.com/pr_threadrepair.php
I think DiggerDave is who posted about Time Serts before. They are expensive but work excellant. If you have access to machine tools like counterbores you can save a lot of $$. Just buy the inserts from Time Serts. You can get an STI tap and tapdrill from another supplier cheaper, like McMaster CArr or MSC. Either make or have a mchinist buddy make a counterbore for the shoulder. I bought direct from Time Sert as their only local dealer was more expensive then they were. Stainless steel ****s for threads, don't use them. That's another strike agianst Heli-Coils being stainless they weld themselves to the bolt.
That's another strike agianst Heli-Coils being stainless they weld themselves to the bolt.-----------WTF?
OK, how about galled, not welded? I was in a hurry and couldn't think of the right word. Stainless threads ****. You can't use never-sieze on a stud you're trying to seal against water leaking. I would use the steel inserts.
GREAT Thread get it? I just ordered up a set of time serts for my banger. I broke two deck studs removing em. Broke stud, drilled hole in broken stud for screw extractor, broke extractor, drillled holes around extractor, broke one more bit in hole!, Tig welded broken screw extractor to bolt, attached bolt to my dent pulling slide hammer and wallah, out comes broken screw extractor, Now I have a major fubarred hole that needs the oversize time sert. God bless UPS as the bits will be here tomorrow and I will use an old cracked head as a bore guide.
Have seen folks weld a large nut to the broken stud - even flush - & back it right out with an impact gun.
Yo Sawracer, who did you find to order the Time-Serts from and have them sent to you? I had to introduce my local Fastenal guy to them even though Fastenal is shown as a dealer for them. I am waiting for my kit and all to come into the store.
I was lucky enough to see a thread here about using a cast iron head for my flatty deck repair. I am using "time serts" and they are fabulous ! Don't even think of drilling the deck without being absolutely straight on. Thanks for the tip!
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