Flathead engine Gurus HELP with cam timing

I am building an 8BA with 286 **** stroker kit. I have the bottom end done. The cam and valve train is all installed and lashed and as I was checking cam timing I find that the ISKY 1007B timing does not match up to the specs on the card. They are about 7-9 degrees retarded from the spec sheet on the valve opening points? (This is on the Intake I didn’t check the exhaust side yet) the card shows Int opening @.020 to be 17 BTDC its actually 7.5*. The @ .050 card numbers should be 7* BTDC and its actually at TDC (7* retarded) the closings numbers on the card are @ .020 59* ABDC and its 58* and by the card @.050 should be 49*ABDC and its actually 48* so the closing points are only off 1 degree. The centerline on the card shows 111 I’m getting 115.5 (by the opening/closing method) and 114 (max lift method) I’m pretty bummed and don’t know what I should do? I’ve never had a cam be off by this much before. Any suggestions or ideas? Thanks in advance. Mike

 

Without tearing everything apart, pull the timing cover and recheck the timing gear index marks and make sure they mate.

 

Thanks for the reply ****.The front cover is off the dots are lined up at tdc. I also verified TDC on my degree wheel several times.The cam gear is an aluminum aftermarket gear of unknown origin and is non adjustable (4 holes) the crank gear is new Offy.
Edit: In this pic you can see the timing marks lined up and the degree wheel showing TDC.

 

I had the same problem with the Max 1 cam in my dads and the 400jr in mine.
My machinist (that I got them from) sent them back and Isky made it right.
The next time im going with someone else’s cam

 

do you have another cam gear you could try? Just a shot in the dark. Next thing to do is find a shop that has a Cam DR. to check out the cam...

 

Are you checking lift at the lifter or the valve? Didn't you say in your first post that you had the valves lashed. Are you trying to get the degrees from the valve? This won't be accurate. I have always checked the cam at the lifter. I think you are losing some degrees while the cam takes up the lash.

 

A little different scenareo but my last banger motor had a new cam gear and my machinist spotted it right away, the detent for the timing pin was in the wrong place. I guess those little guys half a world away got it wrong, you know like when you flush the toilet below the equator the turds go clockwise instead of counter clockwise....or maybe the other way around.

 

I am checking at the valve but with zero lash

 

Just so you know
This information I gave above is totally true and correct.
When he was checking the cams there were 3 highly experienced builders present with over 80 years experience between them.
The cams were way off like yours.

The reason this isn’t well known is most people I suspect just stick um in and run them …. Never checking.

 

Oh I totally believe you and Im pissed. I ALWAYS check cams and have never had one be off by this much. If I have to pull this all back apart to swap cams. Somebody at ISKY customer service is going to remember talking to me for a long time!!!

 

I would try a stock timing gear just to make sure it isn't the gear you're using. Also, if you have access to basic machine tools (like a mill), you can redrill the gear to correct the timing - not that big of a deal with a rotary table.

Flathead Jack sells an adjustable timing gear - would make it possible to advance the cam to where you need it. Having the cam way retarded is not the way to go - makes the whole engine sluggish.

I don't have a gear in hand, but you can also count the teeth and see how many degrees a one tooth change will make?

They definitely shouldn't be that far off.

 

Thanks for the input. The intake opening point is off by at least 7* the centerline by 3-4* and the closing only by 1* If I advance by 7* then the closing and C/L will be off the other way. Advancing by 3-4 degrees will be my best bet probably I guess but Im still really pissed for 315.00 you should get a cam thats ground correctly!!!

 

I hear you … yes it ****s … the teardown and down time.
Luckily when we were checking my dads motor I hadn’t put all the valves in when we found the max 1 screwed up I went and got my 400jr and checked it in the same engine….w only 2 valves.

BTW
My friend that does the flathead machine work makes / has / sells crank gears broached to advance and or retard.
Let me know if you need one.

 

Got exactly the same problem 3 times! and now I'm not working with ISKY anymore.

 

Thanks for the replies I can't believe all the similar stories I am hearing now I wished I would have known before hand. How's that for my first Isky cam. I won't be buying a second.

 

Lot of companies are offering Regrind, I've worked with Camtechnique, Great company, fast and good job. Also I've tried Compcam flatheads cams, they are very good machined and seems to be very good street camshaft

Just my 2cents..

 

Thanks Pete I have always used Comp in the past with great results too I may send this piece of **** to a real cam grinder and have them regrind it. I wonder if they can do the 1007 grind?

 

ask them http://www.camtechniques.com/

They did Literio l100 for me ;-)

If you need cams for regrind, i have a bunch in stock..

 

That's the other grind I was going to go with but this 1007 grind is allegedly a better choice for low and midrange which is what I kind of need to pull this gear I'm running

 

Just an update on the customer service. First I called Reds Headers he seemed a little sympathetic but basically said send it back for a refund. I know they are just the middle man so really its not their fault but, I still dont think I should have to pay for shipping it back. Next I called Isky. The guy there acted like he could care less, I asked if they check the cams for accuracy before they ship them he said yes. I asked if they have had this problem before he said no. I'm betting that is ********. I asked how long for a replacement as this down time is putting me in a bind, he said they were out of cores right now and he didnt know how long it would be. Isky customer service is pretty much as bad as their cams are.

 

Wow! That's some pretty bad service from a company that's supposed to be number one in the world. I bet old Ed doesn't know any of this **** is happening.

 

Some years ago, I've report this problem... Here in the HAMB and to ISKY... not many people was taking this seriously... ISKY still sell bad stuff, Unfortunately...

 

I sent an eMail to Richard Iskenderian (Ed's son, President of Isky) -- not sure how much of a 'WEB guy' he is, but thought he should know this is going on. If I hear back, will update you guys.

 

Thanks I asked to talk to Ron Iskenderian I said "I bet he will have a different at***ude than you do about this" he said he isnt here.
I also bought new Isky springs and adjustable lifters that I am concerned about being **** now too.

Anyways, I'm open for cam grind suggestions other than Isky now. I need strong low/midrange .350-380 lift Maybe this Schneider
http://schneidercams.com/250Fflathead.aspx

 

Schneider cams are always spot on.
Call Jerry at Schneider.
I would go with the 260F

 

Are the crank and cam gears both from the same mfgr ? Mix n match doesn't always "match".... Just a thought, before doing a lot of work....

4TTRUK

 

I didn't see anywhere in your texts how you determined TDC? The proper way is with piston bump-stop method. On another front the cam grinder may have used a 21A index plate, they are different from the 8BA. If that's the case with your cam you could determine that by checking a cylinder on the other bank. The bank spread on the 8BA is approx 145*, the 21A is approx 146.5* Ford factory cams for the 8BA were ground with the 21A index up into 1950, but not the Mercury. Confusing? yes but maybe not as catastrophic as you think. Another hamber mentioned checking lifter rise instead of a lashed valve which is good advice as it eliminates any inconsistencies. Happy flatheading, Pat

 

Their 185G springs are what I always use - have always worked well. If the lifters are the heavy/solid ones, I don't use them -- I like the hollow Thompson style lifters that Red's and others sell.

If you're positive that you want to go away from Isky on the cam, you should contact Pete1 on the HAMB and have him regrind you a Potvin 3/8 - heck of a good cam, sounds great, etc.. Make sure you talk to him about what engine/year and let him know the troubles you've had - so he knows what you're looking for and what your expectations are. He is a good man.

B&S

 

Thanks for the input ,yes TDC checked and rechecked with piston stop method, its dead on. I wasnt aware of the bank spread differences but, I dont think thats it either the opening event is off on the intake by 7* @.050 and about 91/2 @.020 the closing points are close only about a degree. The centerline is off by3-41/2 degrees depending on the method used. The exhaust is the same 7* retarded on the opening @.050. If it were indexed wrong at grinding wouldnt the reading all be about the same amount retarded?
As for the lifter vs valve, As long there is there is zero lash the results would be the same wouldn't they? I would check it at the lifter too but I dont think I can rig up an indicator to do it properly. Im certain Im getting an accurate reading with the zero lash set up.

 

I'm hoping to hear from Pete on the barn site he recommended this grind to start with I trust his choice but, Im done with ISKY. The lifters are Isky adjustables but not the hollow ones Pete and Don thought they would still be OK becuase Im not going to be zinging this thing. But I have a good mind to send them back too. Reds was out of the hollow ones and didnt know when they would have them when I bought this stuff.