Technical Flathead madness, or seriuosly?

Just got the new Powergen, bolted it up with delusions of fan problems and such finally solved. Imagine my angst to find I'm STILL more than 3/4" short of mounting the fan. No, the Offy pulley isn't long enough either. But wait, there's more. If you call within the next 10 min you get belt alignment that makes a cock-eyed cartoon character green with envy. I have excellent alignment from crank to pumps on both sides, but the driver's side pump is more than 1/4" off to the generator as in too far fwd (see the pics). The madness part? How fuckin hard can it be to stick a fan on a flathead Ford? Perhaps my refusal to go "ghetto" and just slap an electric fan on it has consequences? Is the 39 Standard that much a step child? The end of a wit isn't fun. Any help out there?
The 1st 2 pics are pump to crank, 2nd pair is pump to generator, pass side 1st then driver side last.

 

I did indeed double check the crank pulley, and yes, the generator is dead square with the motor.

 

As far as clearances for a fan to fit it might help to know if that's the stock motor in the stock location.

As far as it being wonky it sounds like 3 of your 4 straights are within tolerance and the remaining is the one off?

~ 4 straights meaning the sides of the diamon that belt runs~

If the gen is square and in line with the crank like you say I'd look for a wonky water pump pulley.

If you left the belt off the one water pump it sounds like everything would line up so I can't see how it's not that pump

 

Stock radiator. Actually NOS 39 for an 85hp. Has a "59" in it now, or an 85. It was born a 60. How many pumps/mounts are there for flatheads? Both pumps line up to the crank just as dead on as they should. Even with the Offy alt pulley it's about 3/4" too short to clear the inverted "hump" in the upper tank. I'm convinced that I'm missing something but damn if I can see it.

 

My '39 Standard. "59" engine. Stock ('42 type) distributor, stock water pumps, stock ('39 Standard) generator/fan assembly cut down & bolted in the stock location, with stock radiator, & engine in the stock location. The only thing I had to do, was make a spacer to go between the gen bracket & intake. But that was because the front of my intake had been milled off for some racing application, or something. Shouldn't be needed with any other intake. I don't see why this isn't exactly what you need. Maybe you just don't like the look of it, & that's understandable. The fan that belongs on a "59" probably ain't gonna work on a '39 Standard. I just realized this pic doesn't have the fan belt on, but it lines up fine. The generator had the center cut out of it, & the 2 ends were used. This is to keep both bearings so it's more stable, & less prone to failure. It has a stainless band around it to make it purty. I didn't make the modification to it, so I can't help with a detailed description. But, it looks pretty straight forward to me. It was built by my engine builder: Rich Bickle Sr., from Edgerton, WI. This will work with 1, 2, or 3 carb intakes. If you are running 4 carbs, there may not be clearance. Mine is a Sharp.

 

btw: I have a GM alternator mounted on the driver's side head, w/ a Speedway pulley for the stock width fan belt

 

I also have another radiator that got "fixed" & it doesn't have the "inverted hump" for fan clearance anymore (long story). It also fits with my set up. The fan doesn't need to be up that high. Maybe you are over thinking this.

 

There are a lot of different ways to dress a flatheads front half actually. but if everything lines up except one leg I have to assume something is bent?

How can the crank line up to both pumps and the gen but then one pump and the the gen don't with out something being bent. Can you turn the pulley on the pump and measure again? I'm frustrated for you just thinking about it lol

 

I appreciate any input, but here's some shots of what I have. Just took em seconds ago...

 

Well, if the crank pulley & pump pulleys line up, you have the correct water pumps. Some pumps have the pulleys further out from the block (later truck, maybe?). From your pics, they appear to be aligned, & correct to me. It also appears you are running a stock 1 carb intake. If, it hasn't been modified in the front generator mounting area like mine was (& it doesn't appear that way), it only leaves one thing. So...... the only problem that can be, is the power gen you are relying on to be a bolt-on, isn't. Do you have a stock generator that you can bolt on to see if those pulleys line up? That should tell you where the problem is. Maybe a spacer is in your future too. I have no experience with the power gen, so you will need to ask someone else on that. Good luck!

 

^ but the gen lines up with one pump and not the other and has been shown to be flat with the crank.

Can you measure the offset on each side as if you ran a belt from the crank to the gen?

From what you've said it should line up perfect on both sides and points us back to the one pump

 

Look at my engine pic. It sure looks like the fan/gen pulley sits further away from the front of the intake manifold, than the pic of your power gen bolted up. Yes?

 

Yes a stock intake, just checked alignment from pump to pump (went under the wires) and they're pretty close. The inside of the pass pump has a light 1/16 off. Both pumps are spot on to the crank, yes, checked them again. Took off the generator, checked mounting point. Looks like no mods done. If we call it 5 different belt alignment specs, pumps, pumps to crank, crank to generator, each pump to generator (pass n driver's sides), there's 1 out of 5 that's off by more than 1/4". Driver's side pump to generator. I guess knowing that at any given moment there's a million flatheads running worldwide, shit like this tends to wear me out. I have a feeling I'll be thinking what a dumb fuck I am when I find the problem.

And all of this before I sort the fan issue which also wears me out. Henry didn't use an electric fan. I'm now wondering if there's a dozen or more stock intake variants. I have an idler type fan too. Too long, will never fit. Like I said, madness...

 

Man I'll be glad know what it ends up being. Only thing I can think is when the gen is bolted up its twisting somehow and the ass end is moved over juuuuust enough that by the time it gets to the pump the run out is a quarter inch.

I think I'd bolt it all together and then see if I can shim the generator or bracket. Seems bizarre that it's that far off.

Thinking out loud I wonder if you tied a string around it all in the same spot of the pulley like a belt would be and the. Checked the level/plum of the water pump to gen runs if it'd tell you anything.

At worst with the string around it you may be able to so if something is to far forward or if it's twisted to one side. I get a little gorilla fisted tightening things down so I could so me getting it tight and torquing some twist into things in the process

 

I looked into a twisting effect as well. Not at all, and way to heavy/sturdy of a mounting bracket to allow it. I'm going to check 1 more thing I thought about tomorrow. I had to walk away tonight and try to get my head around this. There are 2 different "style" pulleys on the pumps. Even thought both are dead on balls to the block and the crank, the driver's side is fatter where the pulley presses on the shaft, passenger side more tapered. You can see it in the 2nd set of pics I posted, 2nd pic. Look at the "nose" of each pulley and they're different. I guess I'll shag a belt and wrap it around to see if my alignment woes are ill founded. I also have a sheave alignment bar for my sled to set the offset in the clutches. I'm going to try and drop it in the pulley grooves just like my sled stuff and see what's what. I have a hunch that the dumb fuck feeling might show up in the form of a 'thicker' face on the driver's side pump pulley. Frankly it took zooming in my own pictures to find it. Film @ 11:00.......am that is (!)

 

See the shaft in your left side pump doesn't reach to the front edge of the pulley? Looks to me that the pulley needs to be pressed on a bit more. Might as well press it all apart and install a kit in it while you can, because having run with a bit too much clearance may have messed up the sealing washers.

And, I do know there were some different lengths of intake manifolds in the first decade of flatheads, and maybe Powergen doesn't take that into account when selling a 59A style alternator. Do you know what year intake you have.

The water pump pulleys all had the same offset from 1938 through 1948, except for the double pulley truck stuff.

 

If you have not solved your dilemma perhaps my friend Marv can:

http://www.marvinbaumann.com/

AND he is also in S.E. Michigan.

 

I have a 59ab in my 38 with the reverse hump radiator (stock 38). I use a 6volt HP genuine Henry generator with new water pumps (speedway) and front drive distributor. Som ting wong with what you are doing (obviously) Soooo remove the distributor and wiring, remove wack-a-do generator. Find (available cheap on line or at swap meet) a stock Henry generator and a fan belt that will fit. Install all tighten belt remove plugs and spin this sucker over! Something will or won't happen. If all is good build from there.

 

^ this has nearly zero relivence.

There are two issues as I understand it.

1: his pulley alignment to the driver side pump is off. We now think it may be because of a different pulley style on each pump or said pulley not being pressed on correctly

2: his fan is going to hit shit.

I don't think the fan issue is at all related to the belt as I understand it

 

But that being said if you have a 38 deluxe it may be close enough to his 39 standard to benefit from seeing a photo of how your fan is mounted and how it lands in relation to the radiator

 

After digging in with both feet and several straight edges and 6" scales etc, the alignment is fine. The outer dimension of the driver's side pulley is almost .250 "thicker" than the passenger side. Taking a string and checking the belt surfaces, all line up. I guess I deserve the feeling of dumb fuck I got when i sorted all of that out. Yes too, it does appear that the pulley could press a bit further onto the shaft on the driver's side but that would muller up the belt alignment as it stands rt now.

So on to the fan issue. I see by these pics that there's a deeper fan hub used in certain applications, probably like mine:



I took these at Hershey and it's an all original low mileage 38 Deluxe. The hub on that fan is no less than twice what mine is. Mine is exactly 1" deep from flange edge to edge. Also note how close it runs to the radiator, mine is nowhere near it, and in fact hits the generator adjustment stud and almost surely the distributor once installed because it's simply too shallow. Anybody got a deep fan hanging around?

 

There are a million different depth fans on these 30's Fords. On my '32 I used a nice fan I picked up at a swap meet (no idea of original Ford flathead application) and had a round spacer made to mount it closer to the radiator. My machinist made a locating counterbore on the backside and a step on the front to hold the thing in perfect alignment. Added four longer bolts and away we go.

 

I don't run a fan, been fine for over a year....

 

Clem, Not a good idea. Visit us in two more and we will see your if grand idea is good.

 

I've considered something similar. Same diameter as the pulley (Offy variant from Speedway), 8 hole spacer up to 1/2" thick. 4 holes straight thru with a counter bore to allow those bolts to the pulley to be below the surface. The other 4 holes threaded so the fan can bolt on to the spacer. This is assuming I can't find the right depth, or maybe what I find is still too short. If I get close, say within 1/4", I'd feel ok about a full diameter spacer with just the 4 thru holes and longer bolts into the pulley. Still seems like a lot of screwing around to put a stock fan on a stock engine but when the choices are limited...

 

If a spacer puts all your fan inference behind you, pun intended, I'd just use your current fan and a spacer wether you make or buy one. I had to play with several with my 46 before it clears the water pump and hoses and on and on

Glad you got the belts figured out I knew it had to be something stupid lol.

 

Pretty sure we have some good used fans with the deeper hub (roughly a 2" deep hub). The rest of the fan is the typical 4 blade 15" type.

 

Here's a dark pic of my spacer. The holes go straight through and sandwich the spacer.



I also wanna mention that my generator didn't line up with my waterpumps and crank pulley, so I had to make a spacer (about 1/4" thick) to move the generator forward. The Weiand intake was made in 1939, and the generator is a 1940 style. Probably some of that length issue snuck into there, but I never researched to find out what the measurements' different dates were.

 

Really show me your flathead setup? It is relevant from the standpoint that there are 37, 38, 39 and 40's out here that work! I repeat show me your flathead shit...or are you just a troll?

 

Not the same but I'm running an 8BA with a 12 volt generator mounted in a stock flathead bracket and 52 truck pumps with a 35 -38 generator mounted fan. The pumps have different spacing on some applications due to having a generator and separate fan, one belt runs one water pump and fan and the other runs the opposite pump and the generator. I had a dual pulley on the crank, the inside pulley ran the water pumps and generator and the front pulley ran the fan.