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Technical Flathead six ford model a

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Mamel, Oct 1, 2016.

  1. Mamel
    Joined: Jan 4, 2015
    Posts: 37

    Mamel

    Hello

    I have a french 1930 model A in my garage. The car has been sitting for about 50 years.
    I am not to eager rebuilding thisvengine because this car has the smaller 2.2 engine.

    I have been thinking of putting a flathead six in it, I have 2 flatheads lying around one from a Nash and the other one is a Kaiser engine. Did some quick measuring and looks like I don't have enough room for putting the engine in without cutting the firewall.

    I have seen a couple of pictures and videos of model A's where a flathead six is put in.
    Does anybody know that you can fit a flathead six in a model A without cutting the firewall?

    I would like to have a manual gearbox with the engine, any good combinations?


    Grtz
    Maeckel
     
  2. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 8,398

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    Lots of Model As have been built with all sorts of 6 cylinder power. The wheelbase must be lengthened or firewall revised.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  3. steinauge
    Joined: Feb 28, 2014
    Posts: 1,507

    steinauge
    Member
    from 1960

    I am currently going through this too.As 302gmc says,there is no way to avoid either stretching the frame or modifying the firewall.Why not carefully remove your stock firewall and make a new one?That way you could put it back if you wanted.As to which engine the Nash could be anywhere from about 175 ci to 252.The Kaiser I dont know.If both were in equally good condition I would run the biggest one.If not I would use the one in the best condition.Do you have the gearbox,clutch,bellhousing etc for either of your 6 cylinder engines? If so they should work fine.If not I would seriously consider something like a 230-250 chevy or 223-240(or a 200 for that matter) ford six simply because you can likely buy either of those with gearbox and bellhousing far cheaper than you could find those components for the Nash or the Kaiser.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
    Hnstray likes this.
  4. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,166

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Can I presume the 2.2 was already a conversion? Also that it has at least 60hp stock while the Model A had 40hp.

    That Nash an OHV? How big?

    The Kaiser probably a flat head made by Continental with 6 exhaust ports and 3 intake of about 170 cubes or 2.8,or is it a larger one?

    I would leave it alone if my presumption is correct that the 2.2 is the V8 and is already a conversion from original. Was there any speed equipment made for that presumably Simca engine?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  5. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I think I would find a 201 cubic inch (3.3 liter) Model A and start adding speed equipment to it. Probably would be easier and have greater resale value

    Charlie Stephens
     
    302GMC likes this.
  6. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,756

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I don't know why you would want to use either of those engines. I would rebuild the original and be happy. If that is not good enough for you, there must be millions of good used late model 4 cylinder engines around. Choose one that is not too big or too powerful, you don't want to overmatch your transmission, rear axle, brakes, steering etc. Under 80HP should be safe.

    Installing a different engine will cut the value of the car in half. Do yourself a favor and save every part you take off including the original engine and don't modify anything more than you have to. You will thank me later.
     
    clem and Moondog13 like this.
  7. Many a Model A had larger motors stuffed in by simply moving the Rad forward. That does involve building a hood if your going to run one. Here is another Old trick. Flip the firewall around. Gives you about 6" more room.
    32 Stude 0002.jpg
    Your right, that's Not a Model A body but it is a 1930 Ford firewall. Same job, different home.
    The Wizzard
     
  8. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,307

    missysdad1
    Member

    It bothers me when the radiator is moved forward on a Model A to fit a longer engine, be it a 6 cylinder or a V8. It gives the car a "Pinocchio" look that I find unacceptable in terms of proportions. Sure, a lot of guys will tell you "you'll never notice the extra length", but I don't believe that for a moment. My eye picks it up right away. Better to leave the radiator where it is and move the firewall back as required. Pist-n-Broke's idea of turning the firewall around is great for '30 - '31s, but won't work on '28 - '29s.
     
    Moondog13 and B Bay Barn like this.
  9. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 8,398

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    The best looking of them had the bodies moved back on the chassis in proportion to the added length.
     
  10. waxhead
    Joined: May 11, 2013
    Posts: 1,172

    waxhead
    Member
    from West Oz

    Subscribed as I want to see which way you end up going.
     
  11. 302GMC I don't understand this statement. Can you explain a little?
    The Wizzard
     
  12. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 8,398

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    The only example I can remember at this time is the Dave Dias full fendered '28 RP which had a 6'' body setback & box cut to 3'. It was Cad powered, tho. It was featured in several magazines. The only picture I have handy is in Andy Southard's "Hot Rods of the '50s'' and is too big to scan.
    Same book has a '29 roadster running a GMC with the radiator extended ... Missy's dad has a good point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
    Stovebolt likes this.
  13. Got it, found the Photos. I wouldn't think this application would be a good choice for a sedan given the rear wheel house in the Body. Might get away with it if your fender less and did some metal work,, maybe. Looks fine on a R.P.
    Thanks; The Wizzard
     
  14. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,307

    missysdad1
    Member

    One very positive aspect of moving the engine to the rear in a sedan is that the front seat can be moved rearward quite a bit to provide adequate foot room.
     
  15.  
  16. Mamel
    Joined: Jan 4, 2015
    Posts: 37

    Mamel

    The Nash engine has stuck valves and needs a rebuild, the Kaiser engine is already in the car and has been rebuild 10 years ago but a project that has stranded. Think I am going to look for a Ford six to easier find parts. Here in Europe it is even rare to find parts for a Ford six haha but I will find something eventually. I am going to look to make an other firewall like you said, I'm not to keen to cut this one.
     
    302GMC likes this.
  17. Mamel
    Joined: Jan 4, 2015
    Posts: 37

    Mamel

    The 2.2 that is in the car is the original 4 banger engine that came with French model A's. Normally this engine has about 20hp so that is no thrill haha. I could find a Simca flathead v8, I heard that you can bore them out to fit the same pistons as the US made flathead v8's?
     
  18. Mamel
    Joined: Jan 4, 2015
    Posts: 37

    Mamel

    Problem is that for the moment here in Europe I can't find any 3.3L any where on the web.. That is why I was thinking of an other engine
     
  19. Mamel
    Joined: Jan 4, 2015
    Posts: 37

    Mamel

    Curently here in Belgium the resale value of a stock tudor model A is very low, people are paying crazy money here for a well build model A with an other engine.
     
  20. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,756

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    The Simca or Matford used a 2.2 liter V8 known in the US as a V8-60. It would make a good replacement for the original engine and require the least modifications. If you are OK with the rather small displacement and horsepower.

    I leave it up to the Ford experts to explain in detail.

    The French military used Ford trucks with the larger 85HP V8. They used them up into the 1950s if not later, and manufactured their own replacement engines. These are quite desirable in the states as they represent the last supply of unused flathead Ford engines. If you could find one of those it would fit too, although perhaps not as easily.
     
  21. Stovebolt
    Joined: May 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,629

    Stovebolt
    Member

    Here's the car built by David dias.
    This car still exists and was "restored" at Brizio's shop a few years ago

    dave-dias-AV8-3.jpg
    dias_2.jpg
    dias_3.jpg
    Danny Hildebrand also built a model a rpu with the body set back.
    red-rocket-3.jpg
    red-rocket-2.jpg
    And how it sits today:
    CAM01571.jpg
    [​IMG]
    This is the jimmy powered A roadster also mentioned.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    and here is the link to the thread on this car:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/his-story-of-stan-back-the-roadster.1012117/
     
    302GMC likes this.

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