This is half right. Zip tie, nut end in the #1 cylinder. Crank it CW by hand until the pitons stops against the nut as mentioned. Mark the spot on the bottom pulley at the timing pointer. Then crank by hand CCW until the piston comes back up and stops. Mark the location on the pulley. In-between the two marks is TDC.
Twice during the cam rotation but only once on the compression stroke. Is it getting gas? Broken wires? Don't forget, that if you think you are dead on with the timing mark of the pully, you could still be off by a few degrees. That, you have to check.
well, my current flathead only has about 100 miles on it, and i have never looked at the plug color yet because it runs perfect, but because i cant remember what you see... i pulled a plug and looked. i can clearly see both valves, not quite the edge of the piston, but you have a timing pointer on the 8ba, i dont. i guess if i wasnt such an idiot i could poke a wire or zip tie in the to find TDC, but you have the pointer and i'm the idiot?
You said that it ran before the heads and distributor were removed for paint. My first thought is the distributor. Blow number one and set the mark to TDC. Then stab the distributor with the rotor set to number one. Double check and make sure the plug wiring is correct. If all that is what it should be and it still won't fire my guess is that something else was mucked up when the distributor was pulled. Did any of the wires to the coil or to the distributor get broken? You might try simply hot wiring it and see if it runs.
actually, i'm thinkin the idiot is the guy who put the heads back on without setting the motor to TDC first
New to flatheads, When the heads were off it was set to TDC as per ford shop manual. As he stated we are dealing with a timing issue to get it started and were just on here to for some help to assure we were on the right path.
when I fired up my flathead for the first time having pulled the leads years previously,I encountered a similar problem . I set the motor up on TDC using the timing marks and put the new leads in the cap as per the diagram on Van Pelts web page and indeed repeated on the HAMB. The motor fired but run rough and popped through the carb ( a 94) . So encountering the problem of limited vision through the plug hole, I reset the timing marks with my thumb over the plughole and a ratchet on the pulley bolt . There is sufficent pressure with the plug hole sealed to feel compression in the cylinder without spinning the engine on the starter . OK so knowing I was on the compression stroke it was now just a case of rotating the pulley to the TDC marks. Engine fired and run like crap. So I set it up again, same method. I popped the cap and found that the rotor was pointing to No 6 ( from memory) I re aranged the plug wires to the correct firing order and the moor fired up, idled great but revved like crap.. Replaced the 94 with a beat up old 97 and it run great and revved like a banshee. I revisited the references and although most indicated the plug wires to be in a particular position, one web site I visited had the leads in a different orientation, which happened to be the same as the layout I now had .. If you are running a 94 and its popped through the carb a few times, there is a good chance that the power valve will have ruptured. If yo get it running it will run rich and run like crap. either replace the power valve or throw the carb in the spares pile and fit a 97. I started here. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_startup.htm and the alternative ( mine lay here ) http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_tuneup49-53_239-255.htm and the HAMB https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/flathead-firing-order-questions.338763/ Im not a big fan of the internet, but the information is out there along with as much mis information, so I look up as many references as I can and armed with a base knowledge, follow through the procedures and hope it works LOL If It does I mark that particular reference reliable .. But truth is, unless you have the engine in front of you and are in a position to determine that everything is in the correct order of play, its near impossible to diagnose a specific fault . Try this .. lay out your leads with your plugs attached, but out of the cylinders, switch on the ignition, rotate the engine by hand and observe which plugs are sparking and when . If no1 sparks when the timing marks are way off then the leads are in the wrong order ( your no1 lead being something else) rotate until you reach the timing marks and observe which plug fires ..Rearane the leads to suit and try to fire the motor up again .. easier to do than it is to explain
I meant if he is just trying to get in the ballpark. Quick way to find it and then make sure the entire engine is on intake stroke. Sounds they couldn't even get it to fire first. That is certainly the correct procedure for marking/finding TDC without tearing apart. I was giving the abbreviated version. Sorry for the confusion!
I am referring to the the small distributor drive gear (#6255) on the end of the cam that messes with the distributor . That small gear is pressed on. Sorry I didn't make that clear. See pictorial (#6255) drawing here. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_engine-pics/Flathead_Engine_camshftassy_1949to53.jpg
Yeah, but there's a pin through them. I've never seen one missing. If it was, there would be a problem!.
I just looked at my stock 8BA camshaft with distributor gear installed. There's no pin. However, the gear on the end of the distributor shaft is "pinned". Look here. https://www.google.com/search?q=8ba+distributor+shaft+drawing&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=zc3323PGgfXJJM%3A%2CkDDLsmX1V5No5M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRCVj3MIY15drwWMCJL649JiSfOvQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqvJeWwa7pAhUQnq0KHedhAOAQ9QEwAHoECAkQBQ#imgrc=zc3323PGgfXJJM
No confusion sir! Strangest engine I ever wrenched on, still learning and a pro by absolutely no means. I stand on the shoulders of those that figured it all out long before I came along.
Update! Thanks for the help everyone. With the help from you all and usmc4life, we got it to fire over and run a little. Now that I know it runs it is time to order some parts to get it on the road! One other question, can someone tell me what I need for the distributor hold down or send me a picture of their set up, it was not on when purchased, looks like a stud broke off. 53 8ba. I tried to turn it over myself, and distributor pushed up off the gear. Had a friend hold in place when we did test fire. Any help is appreciated, thanks
What did you end up doing to get it running? Here is a pic of my '51 8BA stock distributor hold down.
The distributor is held in place with a retainer that is bolted down. I believe I have one left over. I'll check tomorrow and if I still have it it's yours for postage.
When I needed one of those and couldn't find one, I went on eBay and there were all kinds of them listed for Ford tractors. I took a chance and bought a couple, Yep, they were the same.
Thank you. Well to be honest, it was almost what everyone mentioned. Proper TDC with compression stroke, condensor was shot, terminals/ wires bad and rotor was dirty/ old
Found the hold down and bolt. Kind of crusty but it will clean up easy enough. PM me if you want it. Tim
Over the years I have found #1 TDC many different ways from the "compression thumb" to watching the intake valve close on overhead valve engines. Warning: Stay away from those brass or aluminium "Piston Stops". They will crack and drop pieces into your chamber. Back to the question: Any way you go about it, you MUST be sure you are on the Compression Stroke. You cannot trust the timing marks unless you put them there and even then, as mentioned, the cam can move, not degreed to zero, or the dampener has rotated. Or like on an SBC, if you install a timing set with the cam marks and the crankshaft marks pointing at each other, you will actually be on TBC for the #6 cylinder. Ford has three different dampener styles for their small blocks- each have TDC at a different angle, or position of the clock. All those posts you see... "I know I'm at TDC but the timing marks on the dampener are 90 degrees away from the pointer"... It's those guys. So a few years ago, I bought a nice but inexpensive borescope to inspect my cylinders and look at stuff inside my engine and around the house. I now rotate my engines close to TDC then use the borescope to watch the piston. I can see it come up and at the exact point it begins to go down, I mark my zero. Trust what you can prove, not simply what you see! OORAH! USMC4LIFE STA Plt. India Co. 3rd. Bn. 5th. Marines, 1st Mar. Div. (1990-1995) Line Plt. Bravo Co. (minus) 4th. AAV Bn. 4th. Mar. Div. (1995-2002) "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he who sheds his blood with me today shall be my brother forever. So cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!"
Thanks, 19Fordy. I'll add that to my Big Book of Engine Knowledge. My '49 Merc has the "bump" on the pulley and what appears to be a stamped mark just to the driver side. Does that mark mean anything? Be Safe! "Big" ED.
"Big" Ed: Could you post a photo of the pulley and the "bump" and "stamp mark" you speak of? For my timing, I just use the "BUMP" on my 50 Merc.pulley which is the same as the 49 Merc pulley. The "stamp" you see may be a manufacturers mark.
Not a problem my brother. I'll post some pics as soon as I can. I'm heading out to get some parts for the '34 (tried to break in a flat tappett cam with the valve lash too tight)... That's what I get for listening to some "expert ASE Technician" on YouTube with a better idea on how to set the valve lash instead of doing it the way I know! Which is tedious and a pain- I'd rather spend all day gapping piston rings. Another lesson learned, err reinforced... Stick with what you know, YouTube is evil and chocked full of idiots! Be Well and Be Safe! Will post soon. Brother ED.
Good evening 19Fordy, I hope this finds you doing well. Below are pictures of the "Bump" on the pulley (painted yellow) and the mark about an inch before the bump. Looking down from the front of the car, the mark is to the right. Anyone know what this is? It appears to me to be a timing mark. I haven't had time to see where it matches up to the piston location. Thanks. Brother ED.
Thanks for posting that photo. I wonder if the marks on your pulley were created by the clamping device that held the pulley in position while it was being manufactured so that the pulley keyway would align properly thereby allowing the raised "dot" timing mark to be synchronized with the firing order (15486372). When #1 cylinder fires on the compression stroke at TDC, the white "bump" aligns with the timing pointer on the timing cover and the rotor points to #1 spark plug terminal. Here's a photo of my 1950 Merc crank pulley timing mark. The white bump is 2 degrees before TDC. There are no other marks nearby.
Thanks, Fordy. So how do you know if you're 4 degrees or 10 degrees BTDC? Like I said, I used my borescope to watch the piston as it came up and then I backed it off just a tad. I used a continuity light to set my points at the #1 Firing Position. Fired right up but it's acting like it's missing from cruise to about 3500 and then it catches up and takes off. It could also be the Strombergs not in synch. I'm just trying to solve one problem at a time AND LEARN. I'm totally a Nailhead Man\, but this little engine has me fascinated and the Flathead is winning me over. Any thoughts? Thanks for the reply and interest. If you or anyone ever need anything, I'm here to help. Brother ED.
You don't want to set your timing 4 or 10 degrees before TDC. Initial timing is set on the "bump" which is 2 degrees before TDC. The thread below will explore that. Here's a good Fordbarn thread (below) on flathead timing. It will answer some of the questions posed above. I checked my 1949-51 Mercury Overhaul Manual and the raised dot on the crankshaft pulley is located at 2 degrees BEFORE TDC. The same is true of Ford 8BA engines. 1949-51 Lincoln engines had the timing "line" on the pulley 4 degrees before TDC. Lincoln engines have very little in common with 8BA Ford and Merc engines except they were also "flathead" engines but with totally different parts and specs. Here's the good reading about timing. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246620&showall=1
Thanks, Fordy. Cool Story... My great grandfather was a Ford Dealer in Brookeland, Texas and from what I understand, he and Henry were friends. I was looking through a bunch of old literature my great grandfather (Martin Timothy Bell) passed on to my uncle and found a bunch of technical and even "student" manuals for Ford. Evidently, he and Henry were such friends; he named my grandfather 'Edsel Ford Bell' out of respect. I was named Edsel after my grandfather. My grandfather would only buy Fords; he even owned a Ford tractor. I've got a cool panoramic black and white photo of all these men in suits and fedoras and a number inscribed next to each man. The numbers corresponded next to each man's name along the bottom. My great grandfather is #170 and knelt down in the front row. He placed his fedora on the ground in front of him so he could easily be found in the photo. The picture was taken down at the old Harrisburg Plant here in Houston. The plant was built there because it was the large switch yard for the railroad and at the end of the Houston Ship Channel- Another brilliant move by Mr. Ford! Check out the caption- "First Presentation Model A Ford".
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