hi, i have just built my roadster and got her on the road but am experiancing a problem with 2nd gear. i bought a 37 trans that was rebuilt from over your side of the big pond which has 28/16 gear set in the box works great except for 2nd gear which jumps out whether i am accelerating /decelerating and i have to literally hold it in there. i have taken the top off and there are no teeth or any signs of damage /wear anywhere that i can find whatsoever. the only thing i notice is that 2nd gear i can literally move about 1/4"-3/8" up and down the mainshaft, should this be held in place firmally on the mainshaft by a pin located within the ge****t and should the 2nd gear rotate when the mainshaft is turned when the synchro is dissengaged???? Anybody have any ideas, the trans was built by someone who builds them quite regular. But maybe away on vacation . just a little fed up as the car is fully painted and finished and it looks like i will have to pull it apart just to get the trans out One seriously fed up guy hoping someone can offer some advice
You should be able to jack your car up high enough to the the transmission out from the bottom. You shouldn't have to anything apart really to get it out. ...provided you have a transmission crossmember that un-bolts.
only the rear end out so i can disconnect the torque tube,exhausts,r/shocks,carpets,trans tunnel,floor,
just looked at a exploded view of the trans and could the synchro be on the wrong way , would it make a difference, there seems to be a "thick" side and a thin "side" so's to speak
Usualy if the sync is on backwards it wont go into 2 gear. My guess would be worn sink rings and its not a hard fix.
Thats just it, its basically NOS, just with being the early syncro the movement on 2nd is confusing me but i agree syncro's would be my first thought
One thing to check and modify before you pull the trans out is to remove the shifting plate from the top, pull out the detent springs and balls and make the ball sockets in the shifting rods deeper. This is usually the first thing to do if the trans pops out of gear. Generally second gear is the one that pops out. Once you get it apart you'll see what to do. You want the detent balls to make a positive lock into the shift rails, but don't go so deep into the shafts that they won't release.
Second gear is meshed with the CS so if you are in netural and turn the input shaft the CS and thus 2nd will turn. But if in netural and you turn the drive shaft/rear wheel 2nd will not move. How much end float in the 2nd gear? Too much and it will jump out of gear while everything else works fine.
+1, the second gear and CS are meshed. 2nd should spin on a bushing until syncro is locked to the mainshaft. It looks like the rear thrust washer is in place behind second gear. There should be one in front also. I was reading through Mac VanPelts book, it looks like for this gear set the second gear has a fairly complicated locked on gear. With the amount of second gear movement you suggest, I would ***ume that things didn't get locked fully in place during ***embly or the front thrust washer might be missing. I have a '39+ out in the garage, I just went to check the movement quick but the top is still on it, sorry -- if you want me to I will take the top off to check, but remember it is somewhat different. I would think a 1/4" is too much movement.
gonna have another look today can't actually see if there is another thrust washer in place/needed with it being the early syncro,the only other thing i have noticed is that you can slide the syncro forward by hand but no way can you do that to pull it back,gotta put the shifter top back on. had apart several boxes yesterday but all contained the later syncros (with the 2 br*** rings) so couldn't tell me anything
Welcome to the Ford 2nd gear club. This is the most common problem with V8 gearboxes. In the sixties and seventies I even saw hooks wired onto dashboards to hold the shift lever in place (useful on hill work). Perhaps the guy who 'built' your box also built mine. I'm currently building a new box to replace the dodgy one. There are a lot of guys out there who claim they can build boxes but can't. I won't be importing any more boxes from the States. A guy on ebay using his wifes name of "plain jane" sells a top plate kit that works well. However, your symptoms sound very severe so the kit may not solve your problem, but it will be an improvement on the seventy year old parts you are using. A word of caution here; the guy you will buy the parts from makes a good new part but sells shonky second-hand gear parts, so only buy new. My recomendation is to get the box to someone who knows these things. And let the dill who you bought the box off know you have a problem.
all 'plain janes' kit has is stronger springs to hold the shifter in place, doesnt sort the issue out. its a common problem bob and there could be several reasons as to why it is happeing.. it could be bushes worn on second gear, worn synchros or too much endplay in second gear on main shaft. good article here about the trans http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/trans.htm try posting on www.fordbarn.com someone might come up with something different.
Thats what I was going to suggest also, had the same problem with a top loader ford box. Put the top plate in a vice, move the shifter into 2nd gear position and put an increasing pressure on the stick into the neutral position, see if its much easier to pop out of gear than the other gears, then you will know if its the top plate detents.
Sorry, you might not be able to see the front thrust washer down in there, maybe with the syncro moved forward but I am not too sure. Here is the exploded view of the syncro (that someone above mentioned) from Vanpelt's site (the 81A), maybe that will help you see what all is in there. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_transID_3speed-synchros.htm Take the advice of the guys who said to look at the detents in the shifter top. That would be the easiest fix. If you have newer boxes available check them for second gear end play, I wouldn't think that there would be much difference between the 2 sets of gears for end play, they just would achieve it differently. Look carefully at what is actually moving, ie just the gear or the mainshaft or the inputshaft. I also wouldn't think that the syncro should be harder to move back than it is to move forward, this might also suggest that the syncro got ***embled incorrectly?
well just got back in from the garage, had a look at the shifter and pulled it apart,opened up the detent and re***embled it everythings fine with that.then i had a look at the trans still not happy with the amount of play so i bit the bullet and ripped the car apart,exhausts,rear end,brakes,hand brake, floor, carpets and took the trans out through the car, phew! took it down to my mates (geordie paul) and pulled the trans apart as I was convinced that the syncro hub was on the wrong way. he had a early syncro hub down there which looked exactly the same as mine except his had the thicker part on his syncro hub at a different orientation to mine as we pulled it apart it became obvious that the forward snap ring/thrust washer had not been fitted correctly and hadn't been locked into position underneath the syncro hub and the peg /holder was moving around underneath the 2nd gearbush allowing the 2nd gear to move forward1/4"which in turn made it impossible to select 2nd gear correctly hence the jumping out of gear. gonna fit it back in tommorrow and see what happens. Many many thanks to all your replies and to my mate for the valued friendship and help in getting this sorted (I hope) although everything seems fine , again thanks again, bob
Well put the trans in and rebuilt the car back up, drove it around the yard seemed fine and put it away for the night,got up the following morning fitted the floor back in and took it up the road for a blast all seemed fine to i took my foot off the gas and "pop" straight out of 2nd again, knocked it back in accelerated,took my foot off again and you guessed it "pop" straight back out again so today I ripped the trans cover off to take a look and everything is still fine???There is no visable wear anyware I even took apart the shifter again fine. the only thing i noticed and I said this before is i am convinced that the outer ring on the syncro hub is on the wrong way there is a thick side and a thin side all the pictures that i have seen show the thick part towards the front of the trans( in my eyes) spoke with a chap over here who also said that the "thick" part has a tiny little flat area at the edge and goes towards the front well mine goes to wards the rear!? i think that the syncro hub has been ***embled incorrectly which why the shifter is not fully throwing the hub back onto 2nd gear enough causing it to jump out of 2nd. lots of folk have told me that you cant put it on the wrong way,anybody experiance otherwise? really getting fed up now as it now looks like i gotta pull the car apart again
First....buy the Mac van pelt book... Second....build the trans yourself....its not hard, and then YOU will be certain things are your way....instead of whining about builders over the pond or what a guru says... Really dont think they can go together wrong and still work.... Now try this.....go sit in your car....reach and grab the top of the tower....MAKE SURE the top of the tower is screwed fully in and tight....
PROBLEM SOLVED! I had a "jumpy outa gear" on my '36 Ford about 10 or more years back. It was a stock 3 speed but it too jumped outa 2ND like you described. I opened up the top and figured the gear set was sliding too far forward in the case when put in 2nd - by just a fraction of an inch! So I took a length of bailing wire and wrapped 1 or 2 turns around the shaft and gently twisted the ends togeather. This was just enough to keep the thing from sliding too far forward. Added a can of STP and new oil and put the cover back on. Low and behold, this fixed it! No more jumpy outa gear. Try that on your new car!
bob ive got the mac van pelt book - if there is anything I can help with drop me a PM or an email. here is a pic of both the early and the late trans as it should be. top is obviously an early trans. the front of the trans is on the right in both pics. as for the different synchronisers the early one had the groove for the shifter in the middle whereas the late one had the groove shifted to the rear side of the sleeve as can be seen in the pic.
Jumping out of second gear was designed into the system, just like the cracks in the Flatty block. Henry was kind of ornery that way. I think he added a second detent and ball in the 39 and later transsmission tops, however. My 34 has jumped out of second gear since I bought it in 1978. I have learned to live with it, I guess.
My old Motor's manual says the side of the sliding sleeve with the short straight area should face the front of the trans. Are all 6 springs and balls inside the sliding sleeve? My scaner is dead or I would post a pic of this area.
Good catch in Motors. I have the 12th edition and it says the same thing about that syncro. Referring to the dis***embly and ***embly of the six ball syncro ***embly "Note- When replacing this type syncronizer on the mainshaft, be sure that the hub portion of the clutch gear and the side of the sleeve having the straight portion at the end of its taper are toward the front." Hopefully someone with more experience chimes in. I could scan these pages for you and email them if you want. Again some stuff from Mac Vanpelts (I looked through his book again and didn't see any notes on this ***embly) Pict of the early synco hubs: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/Trans parts pics/Band48-7106sleeves.jpg Parts drawings of the syncro and second gear ***emblies: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_transID_3speed-synchros.htm Better picts of the one posted from the book -- this is Macs actual pictures from that page, you can clearly see the direction of the syncro hub: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_transID_3speed-gears.htm Cutaway of the 3spd with your syncro -- this looks like it might have been scanned from the Motors book, it looks identical: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_trans-pics/Flathead_Trans_1935to39cutaway.jpg Hope this info helps.
1st , got the book 2nd read the thread I ain't "whining" 3rd looks like they can Now try this....(insert whatever you want)Thanks for your help
Thanks guys for this it is really appreciated some good info there. I do have a van pelt book but maybe not the same.Going to run the car about and see if I can live with it for a while. If you have a look at my pic at the beginning of the thread (I know its not the best pic) you can see the flat/lip towards the rear so it can go on the other way and work, granted you have to hold it in there.It has got to be that as the rest of the trans is perfect(by the way the builder is a real nice guy and very apologetic) just glad to clear that up so thanks for all your help.
Car looks lovely Bob! You could try giving Alan Brock a bell mate. He advertises in the back of Custom Car and does alot of work for the early Ford V8 club. Mine did the same thing then the thrust washer went on second so had it rebuilt at North American, it's loads better (still pops out on sudden deceleration) but having spoken to Al he reckons he knows a few 'tricks' that can solve it completely.
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