Flathead transmission/clutch issues

Old thread but have to ask.
Model a tudor-30 dont know about pedals,
59ab,
F1 crossmember dropped 1" against frame. Seems to be basic solution.
f1 3-speed ( i am told it is) looks like in link +open drive.
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_trans-pics/Flathead_Trans_1942to48truck_3speed.jpg
Clutch/pedal ***embly looks like this
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_trans-pics/Flathead_Clutch***y_1940-48_85hp.jpg

when i did get car throw out bearing was keeping noise. i noticed, it was rotating all the time. Then i did adjust it not rotating, but then it did not disengage.

Without opening it I did order similar 10" kit for f1. No adjutments in finger.
In kit throw out bearing carrier was different (side fork model) for my eyes bearing could be like that in link, so maybe just wrong kit from rock auto?
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_trans-pics/Flathead_Clutch***y_1949to51.jpg


when i did open clutch Car had short throw out bearing with spring from ******. ***embly and disk was similar In car and in kit i did order. Measured twice... i did just move bearing to old carrier as it was same

issue is still
When (short model throw out bearing is all the way in rear position pedal movement is not enough to disengage the clutch properly. gap between fingers and bearing is quite big.. lets quess almost 1/2". Then i did try later model bearing (with tube) before i even notice from pictures, the fork for that is totally different style (Lever style). It jam and cant even be installed With this rotating shaft fork.

I think previous owner knew problem..
There was piece of floor grinded away that pedal could be lifted higher. But still not right.
Whit new kit I did adjust clutch that in rear position throw out bearing was rotating freely. Same issue. i could not get gears on engine running.
then i did adjust that it disengaged properly. But in that case at neutral position pedal was hitting floor and fork was in so deep that bearing was rotating all the time.

First i was thinking that i did accidently install fork shaft 180 degree wrong or wrong but no. Then i just grind the floor plate more ( a lot) to let pedal come so much up that bearing rotate freely. Now a cant install steel plates to floor as pedal is so much in. About whole way of lever. So cutaway is 4" carpet is up and pedal plate lot higher than brake pedal.
i can drive, but still grinding gears a bit..

For my eyes fork is leaning quite much and too much toward engine before bearing even hit fingers. I would say fork is pointing about 11-11.30 when there is contact
Shaft turning radius same, but in that case fork forward movement is very small for actual work.

Hard to explain...looking fork tip rotation from left side... if active work start from 1 a clock position then in 11 a clock position bearing move lot more to left as if start is 11 a clock and pedal hits floor in 10 a clock.

10(that about 1/2") millimeter longer bearing or "thicker" ***embly and then fork would be leaning towards ****** in resting position and while pressing pedal bearing about immediately reach fingers and rotation of fork shaft makes max. movement for fork tip/bearing.


In nutshell with this setup release bearing resting in rear position against ******, pedal is in cabin, i need to use half of the movement of pedal before bearing hits fingers. Then floor start to be close before clutch disengage/release.


What could be wrong...??
Need thicker flywheel( is there?) thicker ***embly(is there?), longer release bearing packet (is there for this fork style?), different fork(is there) shorter ****** case(is there?) Do i need to add block between crossmember and pedal ***embly to keep pedal arms under the floor? Do i still have enough movement on pedal.

Or just machine bushing between fork and throw out bearing and use bit longer spring...

First like to know what is wrong (i strongly believe something is) and if nothing, i make some extension between fork and throw out bearing (smallest work)

 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46968&showall=1

I think i am not alone... same issues. Need to study... long type 10" example...
I think i have that in my car and one set at table... could there be thicker pressure plates? Or could my transmission case be deeper than original? My opinion is that between pressure plate fingers and trowout bearing surface, when bearing rest in rear position i have about 1/2" too big cap what cant be explained by old pins etc... pins ang gaps are not too bad

 

Any help for this??? 1 meter snow and i have time to get it work properly.

Shortly : 24 bolt ab and f1 ******

Is it normal that in rear position gap between release bearing and clutch ***embly fingers are round 1/2" and pedal is all the way inside cabin???

Why travel in pedal is not enough for properly operation?

My opinion that almost immediately, when i press pedal bearing should touch fingers

Or is there some design, i cant figure out? Like lever hits edge of ***embly before that?

 

Any help??? No one have fight with clutch? Driving season coming...

Picture 1 . Clutch Pedal is this high. Floor board grinded a lot that whole pedal long part is in cabin. Not right in my mind. should be only hole on the floor for pedals. Pedals too much rear? to maximize effect, maybe could be more front. But it wont explain Big free play on bearing. It wont go away if I relocate pedals.

Picture 2. Pressure release bearing position at that point. Floor allready prevent bearing to come all the way to rear position against ******.
From that current rear point bearing free play to claws is about 0,25" if i release pedal and spring pulls bearing all the way back against ******. i think free play is way over 1/2" that cant be right???

Picture 3 shows where bearing is just before it touch to claws (2mm play roughly 0,08"

now pedal is high and when it hits to floor i barely can change gears grinds a bit... = Free play+ active movements is more than pedal travel can handle.

Picture 4 shows distance from edge of the opening to flywheel. (60mm =2,36")

what is wrong?
Way too thin flywheel? =also ***embly too close to engine?
Too thin pressure plate? Is there different heights?
Fork wrong type? I dont think so
Fork 180 degree wrong to fork axle? I think its same in both way.
frong type bearing holder??? I dont think so.

Once more
59ab 24 bolt, f-1 3-speed
mechanical rotating axle fork clutch
10" clutch ***embly is 3" high(on the table from tip of the claw to table.
Spring type release bearing.


Please help....
So far only solution i plan to do is in picture 5.
I am pretty sure it works, but I want to know what is fundamentally wrong....

1. release pedal compeletly. and pull release bearing all the way back.
2. Measure free play on bearing itself before bearing touch the claws.
3. Machine from later model bearing holder needed (just bit under free play) extension piece
5. weld original+extension together that bearing is closer ( about 0,08" free play)to pressure plate in neutral (maybe need to shorten original holder a bit
to keep connection on strong point.
6. Hope that Pedal travel is enough When pedal is Under the floor at neutral position.
7. Hope the there were no nee to weld any extension fot transmission guide tube.
8. Start all over, if it wont work.


I have started to machine extension from side fork type holder by removing material from rear side

 

Clutch linkage

and "drawing..." What I am hunting for with adapter....

upper part
due long free play I lose most of the effective bearing axial movement As fork is straight up before active work start. Stroke I have left is short.

comparing below.
Lower part.
Bearing carrier is towards to transmission = fork is leaning toward transmission Then I add adapter and move bearing with minimum free play close to pressure plate.
Same angle in rotation, but longer stroke on bearing axial movement direction

I am sure I make it work with same pedal stroke. but is it enough to get enough bearing stroke with stroke what is left, when I adjust pedal lever out from cabin... Thats why would nice to know root cause.

Last option is to machine new parts to linkage. Primary lever (on pedal axle) longer, secondary lever (on fork axle) shorter. increases the axial stroke against pedal stroke.

 

No help???
Is f1 floor corner more rear comparing to pedal ***embly than in model a? To keep pedal arms outside of cabin.

 

Sorry I can’t help. But I might suggest you change all your photos to full size so those of us with phones can see what you’re working with.

If the linkage is all the same ratio as original F-1, it’s probably the length of stroke. Your floor board is not allowing the needed stroke?

 

Click photo and it opens full screen. Atleast at my phone.

 

I know, but I can’t move it around or zoom in even more. So if you want my help you will have to adjust.

 

Your pedals should bump up against the bottom of the floor board, you could have the wrong pressure plate and throw out bearing and collar ***embly. The picture of that rock auto stuff is way off from what you need. You need the whole ***embly for a 42-48 car or truck with a 10" clutch. Get them all so they match. Also make sure you are not using the Merc 10" borg and beck pressure plate. The fingers are different and won't work with the early throw out bearing. The long style is what you need. You can tell the difference by the bolt holes long has 3 pairs of 2 holes, the borg and beck has 6 holes all equally spaced . Check and confirm all that first.

 

Alchemy... i can zoom and move.... your phone is not compatible wiht european photos?

I have long style. 3 pairs of 2 bolt
I have other similar on table as i did replace it. If i forget pedalside first,
Is that about 1/2 " freeplay on throw out bearing normal???? fork fully pulled back - when it touch claws. flywheel and only surface done during my ownership. At lower part its only shadow/mirror. There is no any edge.

 

And what comes to clutch pedal. I had to grind a lot flat part of the floor... i have now situation like red clutch lever. In photo. Pedal axle is under the flat part of the floor and pegal All in cabin.

If i measure and make about 1" extension block between crossmember and pedal ***embly and exted brake cylinder rod, (blue) it pushes pedals forward and clutch lever should stay under the angled part of floor --> only holes for on floor plate.

Could it just be that basic model a floor has always been modified for f1 pedals? (Corner pushed back)
Many photos i have seen, pedals are normally attached to crossmember and for me it wont work with floor corner if my pedals are correct

If i do 2 mods.
1. Extension for throw out bearing carrier to minimize free play on bearing.
2. Block between crossmember and pedal ***embly.

I think i can get it work and look like it should, but i want to avoid any mod, if someone can find a root cause.

Basic questions still.
Is 1/2" freeplay on throw out bearing normal??? Not pedal freeplay but on bearing. If yes, clutch internals are correct, if not
Wrong flywheel? One pic in previous messages shows distance from inspection opening of f1 3 speed ****** to flywheel surface 60mm =2.36" sounds correct?
There is 10" long style pressure plate.( ~ 3" high on table) and spring type carrier.

If internals ok.
Pedals are left.
Should stock f1 pedals work with f1 crossmember and model a stock floor???
If yes,
Do i have wrong pedals?

 

One thread i saw with stock pedals. Pedals are going under the floor till corner i ***ume, but attachments for rods are different and do they hit example clutch axle. On v8

 

Hi @alchemy, if you tap on the photo, and then then tap on the icon circled below you can enlarge the photo, but I agree it’s always better when folks post pics, they should chose the option to make them “full image”.



@Tonic, can’t help you with your setup as I have no experience with the arrangement that you’re using, but I did read the thread you linked from the Ford Barn, and there was some mention of the pilot bearing being a possible cause (grinding gears). When I look at your photo of the flywheel, I don’t see a pilot bearing. I’m sure you have one installed, but just in case I thought I would mention it.

 

Its there just foto from flywheel. . No effect for freeplay

 

So if all the parts and ***embly is transplanted from an F-1, and none has really been modified, I would think the only thing different is the location of the pedals to the floor.

Or, is the throwout shaft spun 180 and that might place the relation of the outside tang to the inside locating hole of the fork in the wrong angle? Trying to wrap my head around this in case it might be a possibility.

 

Someone in some other tread was thinking same but drilling was 45 deg. So it was same both way. I did also study that on paper and same thinking. And problem was same, when i did get car.
Adjustment was turned, that it was possible to change gears. Throw out bearing was rotating all the time and it did broke

 

It's got to be something in your clutch setup. The forward and rearward position of the pedals should have no effect on clutch engagement and disengagement. That can all be adjusted through linkage. your free play only needs to be 1/8" from the bearing to the pressure plate and a strong spring on your pedal to hold it off. If your pressure plate and disc are the proper ones, I would think that narrows it down to throw out bearing, the collar and the fork. Have you looked at the cross shaft the fork is on, could someone have redrilled it so the Fork is at a different angle than stock. Also if the jack shaft was cut to narrow it, the alignment could be off there, so it has moved your pedal to far back. That was the last thought I had and could be the problem.

 

This is a picture of mine, with the stock F-1 pedals, they are all the same. The only thing I had to do is bend the clutch pedal to the left. The two pads on the pedals come up to the Bottom of the floorboard.

 

I think your floor is like blue.
My is like red. Stock model a wood
If i close the gap in floor my clutch is like green. Then i lose stroke.

When i push throw out bearing very close to claws of pp fork is pointing straight up or even leaning bit to engine.
Does that sound ok?

You are correct moving pedals dont help stroke... if floor corner is not on the way

Tomorrow i finish my king pin replacement. Then i can move the car a bit and get better photos from pedals. I think mine also bended sideways

 

Offcourse crossmember and then also pedal location comparing to the floor comes from engine location as it tells, where is crossmember.
In one photo is front engine mount location. Basic i think.

I had one hogshead adapter and i tid rotate fork shaft. No changes

One i noticed was that 1" pedal stroke is lost as there is bit loose at fork axle connection. I think need to heat and press slightly that axle what is coming from pivot.

 

1” loss is drastic in this situation. Definitely make sure ALL parts are tight.

 

First aid, i did put shimms.

And due the pedal axle location i lose another 1,5" if i press clutch lever to point, where it should stay under the floor.

2,5-3" lost pedal stroke (pedal pad to floor) and if total is round 5"
It cant work.

I think i make between crossmember and pedals 1,5" spacer (brake lever start to go close to bellhousing) and behind throw out bearing, if needed 0,25" or something spacer+extension to carrier. For me 1/2" is too long distance from rear position that bearing touch the claws. It means, fork start active work earlier. My stopid thinking is that i get more axial movement with same pedal movement.

 

One thing also... flywheel.
If someone have make it lighter and top surface machined down... then pp is closer to engine and then more distance to ****** and throw out bearing. But it can be checked, if someone can give me distance like i have measure from mine at photos from inspection door opening to flywheel.

 

Send the PP to Fort Wane Clutch and ask them to adjust thee fingers to wok for your set up. JMO

 

Its bit far from Finland