OH!! One other thing I'd like to add..I don't think there is one person on this board that wouldn't lend a helping hand to someone that was trying to build a car, But needed help..At least that is what I would like to believe.....
You do a pretty good job of summing up what it is all about ****, if ya want it enough you will find a way to build it. No "kit" needed, some ***embly required. Amen to the amen. Which is what drag racing was like back in the '50s and '60s before the sponsored corporate mentality took over. We don't need plans, blueprints or more rules (or rule changes) to build these cars, just the itch to make it happen and some good old hotrodders ingenuity.
You guys crack me up with the rules and the HA/GR cl*** stuff. BobW, Moparsled, 64Dodge 440, and ThingyM pretty well sum it up for me. I gave some serious thought to building an HA/GR car. Instead I decided to build a digger instead. There's no cl*** for it and there will be a few things that NHRA techs will frown on but I'll find places to run. This car has been a dream of mine since I was little so I'm building it for me. I'm not trying to change anybody elses cl***es and I'm not listening to the folks who tell me I have to do this or that. Makes me glad the guys on the HAMB never settled on digger rules, although they tried. I'm sort of rambling but it seems to me a lot of folks miss the point. If you have the bug inside you to build a car outside of the HA/GR rules, by all means build it, but don't expect the world to change to accomodate you. Also don't let the lemmings who are trying stand on the rules limit you. Build and race what YOU want. The building is a big part of it. If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand For me the digger I'm building is my alternate reality.
Kerry, your digger is what some of us had in mind when this whole thing started. HA/GR is what it is and it's not for everyone.
I didn't mean to shake the bed of nails you guys are sleeping on. ThingM, your list of friends is exactly what I was talking about. They helped you get to where you wanted to go, "the build". Why is that so different than what I suggested? Some one building a "dog sled" for some one else. Is that not helping to get another car on the track. You have a shop full of tools. The guy i'm talking about may only own a small socket set or a few wrenches, but has the same level of desire as you. Just because someone else makes a few cuts, a bend or two, a little welding, doesn't mean the owner didn't have some in put. In my book thats called, help. 64, Your last sentence is dead on. Now back to your bed of nails.
ThingyM, "To hell with all these rule changes.. Build it like it was intended and "GO RACING".....[/QUOTE]" Well that waxes it. I really appreciate everyone's participation in this thread, but the irony is too great to p*** up. If you go back to the beginning of this thread you find it started with a call for a discussion of practical ways to get wider participation. It started with a woeful story of heading cross-country to see a Hambster race (under the present rules structure) and due to a lack of cars there was no race.
I heart Kerry As much as I'd love everyone to be getting involved and building HA/GR's, if you're not doing it for the love of 'it', then you're only going to end up feeling '1/2 full'... Like kermit say's, "it aint easy being green" Cheers, Drewfus
I hear your sentiment, and I feel your frustration, but by the same token, I don't believe changing the rules or making things 'convienient' will be a resolve, good comunication and finding people with the p***ion is what I've found to be the best stepping stone to getting more 'action'.... The people are out there, just need to introduce them, not s**** feed the m***es with 'convienience'. Back to the building, Drewfus
Guys, I was told the the race in Tulsa was canceled due to Bob Hindman having health problems. I don't know any details and I hope I heard wrong. We don't always know why races are cancelled or cars never get sold or never built, but I don't think it's lack of enthusiasim. Let's try and get along and hope 'Ole Bob gets back in the driver's seat soon.
Yes, That's what 'Flap said. Health problems...much more important than these cars. I've enjoyed this discussion. If we all agreed there would not be anything to discuss. Butch...P.S. I don't know how to put one of those clever sayings on my signature-line yet.
I had lunch with Bob today. He's doing good. He's up and at the shop days. As expected the soreness is there, but it hasn't hurt his talking any. There was more to it than just Bob's health. Promotor thanked us for helping him out due to more cars signing up for a special race that night than he planed for. We would have been restricted on track time or had to run way into the night(early morning). Thanks for your under standing.
Mr. H, glad it's nothing major, I don't know you personally yet but ****** well intend to at some point. And that'll be considerably easier if you're still ****ing wind. Putting on shows tends to run that way, occasionally unpredictable. Better too many folks than too few .......
****, I hope you get the chance to meet Bob. Quite a gentleman, BS'er and all around hot rodder and amb***ador to the HA/GR group. Ron
Seems like every post about how to broaden the cl*** devolves into a "we love our rules so **** off" ******** of the poster by a rabid few. THATS NOT THE POINT. The point is there aren't enough cars to race consistantly and SOMETHING needs to be done. Beating up the messenger may be fun but it ISN'T gonna help. Getting back TO THE POINT... The rules are what they are. The rules aren't the hinderance. I think that lack of VISIBILITY is the reason there aren't as many cars about as there should be. I have been back and forth on continuing my HA/GR build for much the same reasons this post started with....there's no one to race and no place to race unless I drive 500 miles. The NHRA question is a moot point. We can't move the mountain in one day so the "no place" thing is limited. The Who to race thing might be fixable. I've postponed parting out or making my car into an RPU because I REALLY wanted to race one of these. In the year my car has been in moth balls, NOTHING has changed here, except it seems that there are actually FEWER cars running now. Why? We are preaching to the choir here, so to speak, because there isn't anyone else attending the church. NOBODY CAN FIND IT. The HAMB is a VERY visible platform, yet the HA/GR forum is buried here and lacks visibility, thus it lacks viability and will continue to do so until there is a way to RETAIN the guys that come in. Guys occasionally wander in and get the bug, then leave disillusioned because nothing is going on. I'd wager that 9 out of 10 HAMB'ers can't tell you two things about the cl*** or what it is about. Hell, I'd bet 7 out of 10 NEVER HEARD of it. If HAMB'ers aren't getting the word and getting excited about this cl*** NO ONE WILL. The HAMB is where we will find cars and teams. These are the guys that will appreciate and UNDERSTAND why the cl*** exists. These are the guys that can BUILD CARS. The rest of the world will look at HA/GR cars and laugh. They will see you as the old guy on the minibike wearing a sombrero at the Rust Revival races last week that weaved around and stopped to shake hands during his run - a funny curiosity - and nothing more. As for selling cars, When mine was on the block (and priced at a loss for what I have in the drivetrain alone), the only TWO offers I got were from guys wanting to use the parts on other hotrods. No one is interested in buying HA/GR cars unless you give them away or they are turn-key because they have no clue what HA/GR is about. No one knows how cool this can be except the inmates of the asylum locked away here. You few with running cars are having a good time. Who else besides the few that hang about in this forum KNOW ABOUT THAT? What have you guys done to SPREAD the WORD? This was a good idea that is wasting away. That too is the point and its a Damn shame.
I don't think the idea is wasting away at all- there a BUNCH of builds going on, and every year has seen an increase in numbers of HA/GR that show up at Mokan, which was the original intent. I do agree though, that the target audience- the main board HAMBers, are mostly not aware of what's going on. I don't have an answer to that "question". As far as "spreading the word" goes, outside of the HAMB, or your local track, where are you gonna try? this cl*** has ALOT to do with "getting it", and most just DON'T. I work at a street rod shop, and am building my car (mostly) at the shop, hopefully for the exposure. I keep hoping somebody will see the thing and get the itch, but so far, nobody's made the plunge. This is at a street rod shop- you'd think that'd be a part of the target audience, and, while everybody who sees the thing gets a smile, enjoys the idea, and hopefully senses my enthusiasm, so far, I have nobody to race with. But, y'know, thats OK... I'd rather the "right" guy comes along, the guy that "gets it", than just try to recruit just ANYBODY who'll build one. I don't want to drag anybody kicking and screaming. Let them find there way- and, they will, it'll just take time, and the right stuff. And, when it finally does happen, I'll help that person any way I can, as any of us would. I think the best way to promote the cl*** in your area- ANY area, is to quit waiting and BUILD. Race the thing- VALIDATE yourself and the cl*** by BUILDING. Don't wait around for someone else. Glen- If you're truly enthusiastic about building and racing one of these- WHY ARE YOU WAITING AROUND? I know I couldn't possibly shelf my build for a year. I couldn't stand it. I'm so freakin' excited about running this thing I can barely sleep at night. BUILD THAT THING!! maybe if you hit the track somebody there will be bitten. Along those lines- I've heard some say that they think people are scared of the rules changing or being not firm. The rules AREN'T changing. The rules ARE firm, and HAVEN'T CHANGED for several seasons (remember the cl*** only just started in '05). Which brings this back to the original post, which was a suggestion to change the rules ina way to boost participation numbers. THAT's why a guy gets blasted. Not for fun, or whatever- but because the rules aren't changing, and because it causes confusion (apparently) a**** would- be builders. So- BUILD!.. RACE!!..
Just for a bit of perspective, gentlemen ....... I know of no more rabid enthusiasts (and HA/GR "pumpers") than the ones currently running out here. Hell, we'll tackle you and slip the hard copy into your pocket while we're brushing you off and apologizing. Rocky and Lee not only were instrumental in getting our first strip time last year but are now trying to put it together at a desert air field in CenCal for a seventh HAMBster-able venue at yet a third strip. We already have six venues, at two strips, that we're running as tuck-ins in one cl*** or another. We could be running still more if we were interested in doing 1/8ths. And we did this running but two cars the first year. We now have firm commitments for our own sub-cl*** at five venues when & if we can field eight cars. We're half way there now, have six more actively in the works and we've only been racing one year as of May 1st this year. Now, I don't know exactly how fast the cl*** has grown elsewhere but for my money our year & a month has been pretty damned impressive. And it's looking even better for the future. This progress for a bunch who're reticent to be talked into "m*** marketing" their new hobby in the "pre-fab" world in spite of clarion calls to do so, limiting themselves mostly to word of mouth, direct example and very carefully considered concessions. You know, on proof-reading this post I honestly don't think we need to increase the rate of growth at this point. I question whether it'd survive exponential growth just yet.
i know how it is to get a cl*** off the ground all kinds of people are interested as long as it fits their critiera(SP) ie:if you don't run in my back yard I'm not interested, you cannot run here until there are x number of cars, when you have the guy living closes to the track doesn't show, why he doesn't want to lose in front of his friends.
What you said, 'sled. It seem more like people are scared because our rules are only one page and they can't figure out what to do because the rules don't say how to connect the parts or where to put the clutch pedal. Used to be guys (and gals) built hotrods at home from old cars and parts, but now it seems like they need a book to show them how. Sort of like the basic skills involved have died and we have a bunch of folks who want to build one but don't want to take the time or get started and worry that the rules may change and so wait until they see that it has become easy. If you are worried about being able to run at sanctioned tracks when you get the car built, take the time to find out the tech requirements and make the necessary changes to meet them. The car may not look as "vintage" as you would like, but it will be safe and you can go anywhere and run. Most of the problems and worries can be taken care of with a small bit of common sense applied , but that seems to be hard to find these days. As has been said on this forum many times previously, to build one of these cars you really need a p***ion for the concept and if you think it's too hard or you want changes to the rules you just don't understand what it is all about and probably never will. Use you time to build a street rod, or buy a boat instead and you will be much happier.
We the SDRA, read that Bob Hindman, went to the local promotor and presented a plan for our type of cars to race at his track. The plan was to run on TnT nite, so as not to take time away from the main shows. We take care of our own line ups, keep track of our own points. That way when we line up to run all the track staff has to do is talk about the cars based on the info sheets they are provided. This has worked out very well so far. We race mainly on Friday nites, leaving the rest of the weekend for family activities. We also are able to post on the track web site forum tulsaracewaypark.com forum/nostalgia. There you will find our rules and a little about us. Just the way we do things and it has worked out great.
CrkInsp, you guys in the SDRA have done a great job with your setup and the "Big Dog, Porch Dog" concept. Hopefully we can workout something similar out here on the left coast as we get our numbers up.
"Glen- If you're truly enthusiastic about building and racing one of these- WHY ARE YOU WAITING AROUND? I know I couldn't possibly shelf my build for a year. I couldn't stand it. I'm so freakin' excited about running this thing I can barely sleep at night. BUILD THAT THING!! maybe if you hit the track somebody there will be bitten. " Well, there are a couple of reasons the Horrible is on the shelf. 1. I moved to St. Louis and the new digs have only space for one project to be worked on at a time. In Cincinnati I had space to work on two. 2. I had made the decision to make an RPU outta the thing. That would have made the car #3 on my list of projects, behind my Pickup and the Merc Sedan Delivery. I've delayed that final decision as there does seem to be movement on the NHRA rules front. Getting NHRA approval changes the game. 3. The team concept might work for some, and I woould welcome the help, but it didn't work for me in the past. Having been forced by my line of work to move 3 times in the last 5 years, I don't have the cadre of close local friends I can trust to make a team work. SO... I have to do this solo. 4. Right now I'm still making two house payments, one here in St. Louis and one in Cincinnati, and so money is a bit thin. The car needs tires, steering and front wheels. All out-of-pocket stuff I can't fab for real cheap. Right now I'm working on the '50 Pickup as sheet metal fabbing is cheap as far as material costs go and long on sweat equity and I have the time. The Horrible also needs a minor re-design, as the proportions were setup for allowing the Jolly Green Giant to pilot the thing. It is probably closer to NHRA legal than most as the cage has double loop bars. I'd like to race the car. Really I would. I'm hoping the NHRA rules changes/interputations dicussed in these forums really happen so that I can race locally. Unfortunately, till then or until a money crunch and I'm forced to sell it, the car sits. And I stay away from racetracks. LOL. Glenn
I respectfully disagree. I don't think most people are "scared" or un-interested. Based on the "simplification" and interpretation necessary, unless you are a serious gear head and know all the answers, you are left with a feeling of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Anybody that's already ******** drag racing already has a car or two, (in my case 4). So it's also difficult to fit it in. What will happen if the HAMB heads don't get more involved, others will make a better effort and if they succeed, and then you now have to make your car work with somebody else's rules (in theory). Also, we have what 20-30 cars built in 4 years... Not any kind of gr***roots movement going on there... and most were built in 2005-2006 when the topic was stronger. It's possible...just possible that the one page rulebook doesn't work as well as one might think. If it seems it confuses the other 276 million of us, perhaps it could be updated or altered. If the rules were simplified, and as an example, said this. "Such and such engine only with brand-x trans. Do you think we would get more or less builds? The only easy part of the build has been the tires, seems the majority have latched onto Coker L78-15's PERFECT, finally something I know what it is, no debate, first thing I ordered. See how that worked. Personally, I am of the impression the Vagueness of the rules IS the achilles heal. If it said as an example only, Chevy inline-6, 230-250 and a 350 auto ONLY... you'd get more builds. Quick, to the point, targeted. Guys can find EXACTLY what they need, first time, no second guessing. No poking around, just find it, get the build rolling. No settling with the 235 while you attempt to source a 292 or whatever was in the back of your mind clouding the build process. Pick it, mandate it, be done with it. Don't put out a m***ive range of possible solutions and be-little people that are trying to make the best of the possibilities. I didn't even know what a 235 was until I stumbled on this. Didn't need to know. Don't be surprised if I have some silly questions now though. Our one car STILL hasn't got an engine... I've rousted a 235. I read up and then I got a 230. Then I learned there was better power in the 250, so I got that. Now I'm thinking, "F" that and am looking for a 292. MEANWHILE, my build wallows. Our other car with a 292 (with an auto trans) in it, and is close to done....perhaps a hotlap this weekend if all goes well. vague engine rules have stymied the one build. We're all busy, and for most, it's not likely to be their only car. Likely it will be treated more like a go-kart. Check the gas and oil.... RUN IT... If you feel the rules are simple enough and nothing is happening... well, time to look at the rules. What would help get vintage cars built?
Rule 12 is straight forward all the engines you listed are 7 main bearing engines that were 63 and later not allowed iam not confused so i dont understand the problem
What you said. Seems like the only people who are confused are the ones that want to change the rules to suit their build desires.
Sorry, I'm just sort of flabbergasted by a line of reasoning that says "if you don't run a car like originally decreed then I'd rather sit home and not have anybody to participate with. Didn't the rules change once already? Were not the majority of the original group of cars built with automatic transmissions? And then the rules were changed.
Speaking only for myself, there in, for me, lies the rub. I'm not an engine historian, nor are a lot of people. take me 20-30 hours to find out that 7 main bearing thing, and then another 20 to figure out if it was important or not. Point at an engine, say "that one is the one we all use" and let me get it built. I'm a fabricator and drag racer. Some people have ring compressors and harmonic balancer pullers, I have TIG welders and belt grinders. Odds favor the engine guys laughing at my lack of knowledge on the exact year of an engine (they all look the same to me). I get to laugh at other people's welding, poor design and lack of CAD skills. What's obvious to some is NOT obvious to others. I will tell you what is obvious to me, and would appear to be, not alot of others. I call it the Jr. Dragster syndrome. Stay with me on this. Well meaning Dad wants to get the kids involved. See's the rule, 5hp Briggs, seems easy enough, except that he's 3 seconds out of the hunt with his rope start "5hp Briggs". So you have to dump say **** amount of money in the engine to find about 13hp to hit the dial... DUH, why not simply start with a rock stock 13hp honda engine with a rope on it and save EVERYBODY a lot of grief? make those first days at the track less stressful and a LOT easier for dear old dad. Why dump lot's of money into aftermarket parts to make the 5hp engine faster, less reliable, and more maintenance related? When for another $200 you can just start with what appears to me to be the correct engine? That's what we thought about with the HA/GR rules. Rather than start with the 235 (as an example), and put a bunch of time and money into zoot parts to make it 150hp. Why not just drop a rock stock 150hp motor in it and be done? No custom parts, no dyno time, no reading endlessly on the web trying to get a 100hp engine to 150hp. That's how we explain it locally. A guy will ask, could I potentially run "this" inline engine. We ask him... What did it come with for power as delivered from the factory. he says 135, we tell him drop it in buddy. We don't care what it is, or where it came from. 135hp is a 135hp. and if it's rock stock, guess what, you're saving time and money. It's bracket racing, you're only racing yourself. The argument about, the next guy putting money into the bigger engine to get even MORE horsepower doesn't apply to me and our guys, we're not racing anybody but ourselves, and it's bracket racing. And we'd rather start with 150hp, $200 engine and be done with it. Than pump a few grand into a 100hp engine to get to 150hp. Think Jr dragster... Why pump $1500 into an engine to make it hit the index??? YOU HAVE THE WRONG ENGINE. Get the bigger engine, don't modify it and leave it ALONE. The index is the index, so it really should work for everybody. Go to fast, you lose. Figure it out. Speaking for myself, we're not going to get to race any of you folks with our vintage gas dragsters. Notice the careful lack of the word HA/GR. So it's not important that we meet any rule, but our spirit is there. I'd say we ended up SDRA, and changed it slightly to keep it cheaper and make the build easier. +1 Either change with what the customer wants or be satisfied with what you have. We have more racers doing Million dollar top fuel cars in the USA than the "cheapest" version, the ha/gr... So, uh, what's the deal there? I think it's okay to review rules changes, it's only 20 cars for **** sake. And Ryan doesn't seem to be overly interested (no disrespect intended), he's posted in the HA/GR section about 2 times in a year. So I don't suspect we're hurting anybodys feelings by talking about it. And I've said this before too. If the only goal was to get 20-25 cars to the tracks (in 4 years of working on it) and be shunned by tech officials, then it's perfect, as is. All it takes is somebody to make a cl*** just Slighty more on target with what people are capable of doing and you'll find yourselves working to meet their rules. We ended up more SDRA, than HA/GR, and we've been calling them VGR's (Vintage Gas Rails), so nobody can call foul on the build. It was more of what we were interested in doing, for safety, ease of build, and ease of maintenance. the "spirit", is the same. Marketing.
I agree with Tom what it all boils down to (for me) is- This is the H.A.M.B. This cl*** was originally brainstormed by H.A.M.B. members, who for the most part already participated at the H.A.M.B. drags, and were looking for some H.A.M.B. style, vintage style, fun for their dragstrip event. The cl*** was NEVER INTENDED TO GO BEYOND THAT!!!! If you choose to come to the forum area set aside for the folks who want to build the style of cars intended to be run at the H.A.M.B. drags, then I think you ought to play along by the rules set forth for that (this cl***) forum. Would you go buy a Big Dog "chopper", then ride on down to your local Hell's Angels' clubhouse looking to change THEIR rules So YOU'LL fit in? This is how I see the HA/GR cl***, and this thread. There are those of us who embrace the original intent and form of the HA/GR cl***, and there are those who come here to try to morph the cl*** so they fit in, with no intent of ebracing its origins. Therefore, I say again, as I said at the beginning STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE ****ING RULES!! build whatever you want- take the HA/GR concept and twist it any way you want, but don't come HERE looking for my acceptance.
furthermore- read these two threads beginning to end http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46778&highlight=hambster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45877&highlight=hambster and remember- EVERYTHING else came after
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