I respectfully disagree. And will add that I find it "unlikely" those with only a mild interest in the topic will make it to the bottom of this note. The tone of this message on the hambdrags.com history page does not support that one time, single track notion. My disagreement is an opinion, based on what I read from the founders on the History page. (shown below). This is the note from people that feel it's spreading and growing, and that seems to be what makes the writer happy. Heads Up Racing For The Working Man It started a few years ago... Kevin Lee had the initial idea for a "parasite" digger and took the time to share his thoughts in what has now become a historically significant thread on the H.A.M.B.. Sam Strube took it from there and started laying out what he thought would be appropriate rules. Fellas listened and three cars showed up at the 2005 H.A.M.B. Drags ready to duke it out. I have no idea who won. Hell, I didn't even have a trophy for the winner. In either case, I don't think it mattered to any of the teams or spectators. We were all just happy to be a part of something that literally hadn't happened in 50 years - traditional " bug styled" diggers going full bore down the quarter mile. It was a sight to behold and something most there will never forget. After the event, word started to spread and the HA/GR cl*** started to a get a lot of attention. In fact, race tracks across the country as well as through out the world began asking questions. The next thing we knew, there were 20 something cars being built in the U.S. and another 15 or so in Australia. We hit a nerve... Still, this movement is so young it seems a bit presumptive to have a "history" page in this manner. Chalk it up to confidence and an absolute dedication to spreading the gospel. You will be hearing much more from us in the years to come. If I was on their website, and it said build a chopper from scratch and join in our efforts to support choppers, then yes. I don't think anybody is interested in changing the HAMB. It's a forum, and it's pretty straight forward in how it works. A few are possibly trying to explain how the rules, killer ideas that the are, don't work in enough places to be sound IF, and mean IF the goal was to increase car count past 20-30 units world wide. I feel that if the "spirit of the bug" is a real and I mean REAL criteria, and nobody from the stands is going to notice if I have a shiftlight or not, then who cares? If nobody from the stands can tell if my block was made in 1962 or 1978, then everything is still fine. It's easier to spread the gospel with 100 people than 20. How many of these new cars were stick welded? Anybody gas weld theirs? How many folks bought brand new Coker tires? Anybody with spindle mount wheels? Anybody obtain all their information about the build ONLY through the mail, as there was no internet in 50's. Anybody accusing toymaker of not having the spirit? What's the date on that engine? We have a well accepted rear engine HA/GR car in the group. Doesn't look much like the bug. See any nice paint jobs and powder coating? Funny how we can overlook the forest trying to see the trees when it suits us. They don't actually have to, a few of the disenchanted are starting their own versions of the cl*** to build participation. you either build and re-act to the market and take it with you, or the market changes and takes you with it. From our personal perspectives we were inspired by the HA/GR cars. And now it appears we (our local group) are building cars more along the lines of the SDRA cars. I don't, and I bet a few others are in the same boat, give a flying rats *** what you call a car that looks like that, or what cl*** it is. I just want to have a car that looks like that. And so that's how it went down. This whole argument is mute if the goal was to have 20 car built in 4 years and have the same 26-30 guys on a hidden forum endlessly debate it. And have the ch***is built so it's not built to current drag racing safety standards, If that was THEE goal, then those that might complain have no argument. The cl*** is a worldwide success based on that. And that's not sarcasm, it's numbers. It only needs changing if people are not happy with car counts, Then absolutely, the rest of us should STFU! I have no problem with that. So the next time somebody pipes up with some kind of concern or dis-enchantment, tell them, we are happy with the numbers we have, we are not worried about your concern or whether your car meets our standards. We don't need you, we have just the right amount at this time.
OK, I'm not a HA/GR guy but this thread frustrates me for several reasons. Some time back there was a thread on the main board about moving this HA/GR section up to the front for more visability and promoting the HA/GR thing at NHRA venues. The thread got closed by Ryan with the following post which explains his original intent and why you don't see him posting here. Here it is. "Alright... I got a minute as everyone here at Ranche De Cochran is a asleep at the moment... I didn't read much of this thread. I just got a feeling for what it was about and where has been headed. I'm going to write my thoughts and then close the thread - not because I fear backlash, but because I want people to think about what I wrote instead of typing a two sentence response and moving on. This will be one of the few times I offer leadership on the subject, so if you are looking for it, here it is: "Nothing ever stays the same. You can't build fences around life. It's just this on going process of evolution and change and growth and death. Everything in my life fits that bill... except for surfing. That's because I surf for me." I stole that from a movie called "A Brokedown Melody" and right about now you are either calling me crazy or a hippie... But hang on. I grew up racing and spent most of my adolescent years getting paid to do it. It's a business and just like any other business, you put on a suit and you go to work with one goal in mind - growth. If you don't grow, you die... but when you do grow, evolution takes over. And it's not something you or I can control. It's an organic process... and in the case of every auto racing venture/series ever started, this process killed the one thing that was responsible for starting the venture in the first place - p***ion. Once growth starts and evolution kicks in, the money race... the ego race... the compe***ive race... They all start to change things. No longer is Eddie going to the track just for love. He's going for other more powerful reasons that destroy the original intent. Innocence, more than anything, is lost. The guy that couldn't build a fence around his life, could around his surfing p***ion because he wasn't doing it for any other reason than to enjoy HIMSELF. He could care less if there were three people to share the waves with or 20... He was there for himself. I've always felt the HA/GR cl*** should share the same intent. I don't care if there are 3 cars or 20... 1 event or 10... It's not a commercial endeavor. It's not an organized endeavor. These cars aren't fast, so it can't be a compe***ive one... It has to be one of p***ion. I honestly believe that any fella that builds one of these cars with the intent of reaching the outside world in anyway is doing it for the wrong reasons. These cars need to be selfish. They need to be all about the guy(s) that built it and drive it. People that haven't built one (myself included) shouldn't be involved in these conversations. They are just noise. I guess the bottom line is this... The HA/GR cl*** was not built for fellas to live vicariously through an affordable form of racing. It wasn't built to see who can out think who with a flathead or who can out spend who with a straight 6. It was built for guys that have an honest p***ion for early drag racing... the foundation of it all... and as a way for the right guy to build a fence around his own p***ion. I'm afraid some folks are in it for the wrong reasons - and that's OK. They will get frustrated and move on... I just hope there are at least 1 or 2 guys out there that are banging gears with blinders on and a big *** smile on their face. "
Feel free to disagree, you have the right and I have no problem with that. As for the number of people, that really isn't what this is about, if numbers are so important just build and race in a cl*** with lots of cars. As for the welding, we have built the car with torch and stick welding from the beginning and though it has been debated in other posts to the point of insanity, 4130 chromoly was originally welded in aircraft with torch and still is in many repairs and restorations and those structures aren't failing all around us. New tires?? If it bothers you so much just go racing on tires from the local wrecking yard. Spindle mounts were used in the '50s on some cars and Mid engined cars were built then too. Paint is paint and with the current "tree hugger at***udes try and find anything to paint with that has the same formula as it did back then. Moot point. Build what you want, no one really cares what parts you use and if you are just going bracket racing it shouldn't matter. Just accept the fact that you are outside the "box" of what the cl*** is and don't think those building to our rules will change them to make you happy. The obsession with numbers has no point for what this is about and as Ryan put it quite a while back as long as some guys are out there banging gears and grinning it is a success. Absolutely, we are happy with the numbers we have, we are not worried about your concern or whether your car meets our standards. We don't need you, STFU!!
OK, as I'm mentioned I'll go ahead for once and do your homework for you ........ These are only the first three in my own folders. There are, of course plenty more, and most are well do***ented. But if you want'em, do your own homework. Vector', you made the point of course but I know you understand as well as I understand yours, so this is for those who don't know the history and the application ........ Please do not consider these as justification or rationalization, because I don't need it, and I don't give a rusty **** if someone feels I do. They're simply my reasons. Kerry, thanks for reminding me once again of Ryan's eloquent little post, I've liked it anew each time I've read it. Ryan, once more, thank you for your efforts. I know it gets deep here sometimes but should you chance to question the efficacy of your work here, feel free to note the tone of my avatar.
Wow! Ryan hit it right on the money, in my opinion. The reason this type of car is appealing to ME is simply the fact that it gives me an inexpensive way to A: Cure my need for speed, B: While doing so, listen to the wonderfull melody of an inliner, or flathead V-8 (my two favorite mechanical sounds), C: Exersize my creativity and idividuality (something next to impossible in today's cookie cutter racing), and D: Spend quality time with myself, building something with my own two hands. If the time comes that I can get together with like minded people, and burn some rubber....well that's just an early Christmas!!! The REAL bonus to me however, is interacting with a community of folks who "get it". There are so few of us who do....Ulimately though, when I go out to the garage and fire up the hot saw and welder, it's all about ME. Like Ryan said, that's when I build a fence around myself! That said, a couple thoughts on the rules.... I'm not one of the ones who wishes to change the rules according to my own personal agenda. What I WOULD like to see, is clarification of a couple rules. The reason I say this, is I have raced circle track cars for years, and I have become adept at finding the loopholes to gain the famous "unfair advantage". I can tell you already, that there are a couple holes in thse rules that need to be plugged, in order to keep the "Spirit" alive. Regardless of all that, my project will go foreward. I just don't want anyone to look at what I'm doing, and say "You can't do that", when the rules clearly give me the opportunity to do so. I've been there, done that, and got the damn t shirt! If anyone is interested, I'll point out what I'm referring to in another post. Cheers!
Case in point. 1) You originally came here asking questions and expressing interest in the cl*** and yet spend most of your time here wanting to change the cl***. 2) You complain that there isn't enough support for the cl*** and people can't find enough information on how to build an HA/GR car. 3) You claim to be a "fabricator and drag racer." 4) You start a "build thread" in October of 2008 and have basically no information or pictures of your build to help others with ideas on how to build. 5) You reference welding and CAD skills, so as a fabricator and drag racer, why not use the CAD skills to design a basic ch***is for the design challenged out there and post them here for their benefit? Just my two cents and they ain't even worth that much, but it seems like all you are doing is *****ing about why won't people change the cl*** to something you would like to build and offering little support for those who express interest in what the cl*** is all about. It just seems like you would rather bracket race with a car without a cl*** or have a "the crowd can't tell from the stands" cl*** of "Vintage Dragster" that fits the concept as well as the current crop of "Nostalgia Top Fuel" cars relate to the cars of the '60s and '70s, then to try and build within the ideas of true vintage engines and heads up racing. Might as well use Toyota engines, hell ya can't tell from the stands. That is your choice, but don't expect us to care for or accept your ideas. It's sort of like expecting vintage sports car racers to say, sure you can run a new Porsche or Corvette they almost look vintage and we'll just put a smaller carb on it to make it even. If you are serious about this game decrease the BS and start posting some pictures of your build. Otherwise, go bracket race whatever you want to build and leave it at that.
For me, there are two things that should be pinned/locked at the top of this HA/GR section, the rules, and that quote of Ryans, as it sums it up better than any I have ever seen....thanks for the reminder Kerry. This photo is in my top 5 favourite photo's I've ever taken.....as they make the hairs on my neck tingle every time I see it..... (taken on the first outing of HA/GR's in oz) Cheers, Drewfus
I apologize, I think this may be about the last long post you see from our camp. Now that I understand the direction. Now I know where we stand, I have no problem with that. My posts have always mentioned if the car count is low and that was the intent, then I'm off base. And clearly we have what we were after and I'll STFU on the matter. Truly. This is where I get confused, If we don't care about the number of people... why are we trying to spread the word? This really has me scratching my head. Wasn't trying to change rules to suit myself. I can make anything. Was trying to point out that small modifications could be more palatable to other builders and help get more cars built and "spread the word". Which, now that I read it, nobody cares about, so I suspect we are done having to debate it with the other 28 people that frequent this thread. We don't care how many people do this, as per Ryan's quote. and THAT is why I like ya. Not trying to sugar coat it. I appreciate it, quite frankly. Dude, Your car doesn't look like the bug, but you have the spirit, and THAT I can respect. You just plug away, kicking *** and having fun with a great at***ude. Well done. Not to suit myself, help others, and spread the word, which we have no read, The founders don't actually care about, 1 car or 20, 10 races or 1. The goal was not to grow or change anything. I get it now, I really do. We are absolutely cool if nobody else EVER builds a car. I'm down with that. I understand. I've mentioned before how hypocritical of me it is to come in here looking for inspiration, yet providing none. That should REALLY be telling you that I don't care what you think about our cars or that I'm trying to change anything, I'm not. I'm not looking for approval. But look how much space and time we've all saved by NOT debating what our crew is doing and what we could have done better. Look around, there's lot's of that (along with praise) in all of the threads. I'll post pics one day. Likely from the track. I'm actually quite proud of the 1st car, some stuff going on there that I like, a LOT. I think it's going to be some seriously vintage looking stuff. That's because 3 of the guys helping, don't hang out here. It's a lot of their Ideas, and I help wrap everybody around the rules. It's become our idea of what a vintage car looks like. And really, I feel that shows some spirit. Here's how it went down, We liked the HA/GR cars. I asked millions of questions, got run in circles by people using words like "spirit" when I just needed a direction, like north south east west. I wasn't alive, It's not that I don't get it, I don't know what "IT" was. But I like the cars, so I must like "IT". After a few months of buying one of every engine... I just looked at my buds and said, "**** it, we're not racing these guys, why don't we just slap an automatic in these things and you can run any engine you want under 150hp as delivered." There was much rejoicing throughout the land. Long boring web forum posts slowed down and BUILDING STARTED... I'm just telling you what got US going and building. To the people in our stands, these will be HA/GR cars. To me, it's a vintage gas rail. Inspired by you guys. Wasn't trying to change the rules to suit myself. Was pointing out how altering the rules got a few more cars built, and perhaps if getting more cars built was the goal, this is what got us moving. Nothing more to it than that. You know what? If 3 high school kids came to the track with some ratty-*** old rail with some old Toyota 4-banger in it, that they made on their own, from **** that was laying around and did it in thier old mans driveway, with no help from anybody on the internet... THOSE KIDS WOULD BE THE APPITOME OF THE BUG, it's what they had and nobody helped them. And they said **** it, and brought it to the track. In fact, in that scenario, if you didn't perhaps smile, and maybe well up with some pride over what you witnessed, which would be for all intents and purposes, THEE bug, right down to the spirit built 50 years later...Should send a chill down your spine, Toyota motor and all. Then we might indeed as well run Toyota's. Because for that scenario, that is where the spirit is. You've now put rules ahead of Spirit, and The rules came about based on the "spirit of the bug". Kids that made the Toyota dragster, don't give a flip about you or I or the HAMB, thereby endearing them that much more to me. TRUE SPIRIT. No build thread, no questions, made a rail outta **** and took it to the track... probably with gas they siphoned out of my family car... "PROPER". I am okay if you don't accept my ideas, truly. This is why we have no pics of our builds here. Clearly, I'm not interested in your approval. Absolutely no dis-respect intended. I was only interested in what might increase build numbers. Now that I know that is NOT the goal, I have nothing to add on the matter. I was just trying to help by giving up ideas to help spread the gospel. Nothing more.
Hi Vector. I like your at***ude. We in the Tulsa area would really like to see more cars, we have had seven on one weekend, and would like to see a lot more, we don't really want to weight on the 3 year builds. Keep building your way, you are a long way from any others anyway. I would like to see your build pictures and pictures of your friends, also, that is what this thread is all about, anyone that thinks that they can tell someone how to build is simply out of touch with reality. Everyone that builds one of these does it for personal reasons, they are all slightly differant, If we all thought alike it would be boring just walking around the parking lot at the grocery store, all the cars would be alike. I like variaty. So PLEASE show, at least me your build.
Point taken and accepted, as for the lack of build pictures and information, regardless of where you are coming from, it would be nice to see where you are going with it. Absolutely no dis-respect directed. We all have different opinions and ideas, but just because we don't agree on the direction taken, it doesn't mean we aren't interested in the results achieved.
Fair enough. alright, I'll tease ya. But I'm not interested in posting any additional pics until we have at least one on the track. This isn't a build thread, and I don't want to bogart it. I will say that I like the lines on toymakers axle and the way it flows to the frame. We tried to keep the front of #1 car as smooth, clean and uncluttered as possible. This was shot about 3 weeks ago. The engine is in the car in this pic, car is at ride height. Would move and drive if we put fuel in it. It ended up at 117" for wheelbase. Some random CAD fun. The first CAD image is the bracket I had made to mount the axle on my ch***is to the car, this part is cut and done. Axle goes in the big relief. Just below it is the hole that mounts to the nose of the ch***is, the top 4 holes are mounting points to run a rod to the back of the frame rails. Lengthening and shortening the rod will allow effortless caster change, and because it's bolted on, we can make axle changes VERY quickly. Wheel and tire, 15"-4" wide rim, 5 on 4.75 for mockup. The #1 car is rigid, #2 is not. The second CAD image was some width and height testing with a quarter elliptical setup. Helped fine tune a few things elsewhere. We opted not to go this way.
This isn't a new fight for me, I'm equally insane in other endeavours as well. "Narrow Gauge" model railroaders are but a tiny, dusty corner of that huge hobby. Try keeping a 2000 sq. ft. narrow gauge model railroad club with layouts in two competing scales "on track" (pun fully intended) and true to our original dreams with an active membership that seldom exceeds six. Now keep it up for 24 years. Oh that's right, there's only one successful "three foot" club around, ours. Seems 3'ers are such damn manic rivet counters that they can't agree long enough to even form clubs normally. Plenty of really killer one owner 3' layouts, just no other 3' clubs. We could have as many members as we could wish for if we'd only ....... (ad nauseum) ....... to attract'em from the immensly popular standard gauge areas of the hobby, the world in general, etc, etc. Modellers join from time to time and most of'em move on sooner or later in the natural course of events. They usually leave as friends and with well wishes. They just didn't quite "get" what we are, almost, but off it just enough. We want more members ...... as long as they want to be part of the original dream. So we turn a lot of "chaff" for the few "kernals" that belong here. On an average only one out of the three or four new ones a given year will stay beyond two years. But you should see our layouts, our dreams have come real. And we'd pay the price again for the same results. Gentlemen, I believe these two hobbies have some serious parallels and I think their growth & maintainance levels will prove to be similar. This is why, unlike Ryan and others, I welcome the SDRA concepts, as a place for the "almost" HA/GR wants and needs of other racers. In that respect I firmly believe they can only add to the total count of the field, and are not "taking" from HA/GR itself. I very much believe that what we've got here is something much larger than HA/GR alone, and will prove that in due course. I think HA/GR itself will end up a small, p***ionatly followed corner of the very movement it spawns.
LMAO... well, we have more than Vintage dragsters in common... Although I've never built it, I've mapped it out on my property, and got the okay from the wife. I decided I'm not into the effort of steam. I Lurk all the sites and have a THICK printout of what needs to be done along with about 5000 pictures that I show my friends and they roll their eyes. I'm not as interested in riding it as I am in building it for the little ones to enjoy. It would appear that "tinkerers" all end up on similar paths eventually. How do you feel about a miniature golf course in your yard? I'm glad I don't live near you.... I'd have even LESS spare time.
Have one planned for our "weekend place" (read 5th wheel trailer in the hills of Tehachapi). "Offroad course" using natural terrain as the challenge. Won't be no stinking windmills.
Okay, then let me summarize what we have agreed on so far... Any engine, up to a Chrysler hemi, is allowed so long as it is wood burning (no more than 60 board feet per run). Any L78x15 slicks burned down to the carc*** will be replace for free by Coker Tires. 24,719 Baby Boomers may show up at Mokan with V-8 powered hamsters. A fence will be built around the original Hambsters so that the sanc***y of running SAAB carburetors can be ***ured. Each Lane's scoreboard will have a sign reading "Don't change the ****ing rules!" "Dog Sled" ch***is will be provided by NASCAR. **** Kraft followed all the rules. Innovation will be praised but totally restricted. Mokan is so close to the Kansas border that a brake failure on a Hambster may result in funning past the state line into the "land of Oz.'"
Oh, some more things we have apparently agreed on as close as I can understand it. All contestants will be divided into two groups ...One group will be called "those who get it' and the other will be designated as "those who don't get it". Any run down the track by someone who "doesn't get it" will not count as long as there are members sitting at home with cars who "get it". Some of the cars will be driven by a cl*** of canine called "porch dogs." As this discussion becomes clearer and clearer to me I will add my thoughts as the revelations occur.
****, LMAO ... Instant mental picture of one of those old "dogs playing poker" poster styles applied to a pits setting and in cl***ic Drag Toons layout. And you forgot one ...... All time slips shall bear the motto "Now STFU" following the numbers listing.
Butch, LMAO You made my day !!!! You pretty much covered it all (and all of us also). I'll never take all this too seriously again. Ron
But seriously folks....... If we ain't having fun, what the hell are we doing this for. And what about the "purse dog" group?? Don't think we are anywhere near Kansas.
The Jalopy Journal
