A needle bearing that doesn’t turn constantly, but has a lot of pressure on it, will cause brinnelling. Basically it will wear a groove in the kingpin at the location of each needle.
Beanscoot, you can search this and other sites on why needle bearings fail on front ends, but here are a few. All bearings, including needle bearings are designed to spin at a specific RPM and with proper lubrication will last a long time. With a reduced arc such as on front end steering, will promote early failure. Also, the reason Ford and other makes never used needle bearings is the pounding that a suspension system endures and the needle bearing can not take the daily road hazards. I'm a lot older than most of you guy's and remember in the late '60s and early '70s when the "latest and greatest" Teflon bushings were tried and lasted about a month before they failed. Sometimes the latest and greatest aren't so great. Oh sure those that have installed needle bearings will tell you that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but stick with tried and true bushings.
Out of curiosity; how did mother Mopar get by using caged needle bearings in one spindle bore on her kingpins. Anyway a few years back; I helped my buddy put new kingpins in his '37 Dodge. Took it apart and found the normal bushings in one eye and needle bearings in the other. Found a NORS set on eBay and installed them.
Thanks for the details about the needle bearings. Makes sense. However U-joints should have the same issues but I suppose all the parts are hardened to a suitable point. Another thing, those Sunnen Hones didn't change much over the decades and most of the parts still seem to be available from Sunnen. I just did a major repair to one at work and happily discovered this.
U joints are constantly moving. Needles in the steering components tend to sit in one spot while driving on a modern freeway. Every drive I 80 across Nebraska? You make about 5 turns in 450 miles. To credit Nebraska, I 80 runs the Platte river valley. Go 20 miles north or south and Nebraska is a wonderful place.
The needles in a U-Joint actually move only a tiny bit, when the driveshaft is exactly in line with the transmission or rear end, not at all. Once there is an angle between those parts, and as it increases, they move proportionally more.
Not even when they went to weldments for the body. If you look at my 1928 version and NeilinCA’s, they are virtually identical main castings. Notice that the control knobs are slightly different. The oldster has a 4 spoke handle with no graduations, while the newer version has a graduated lower dial as well as the upper dial, which looks like the same design on both. And the mandrels are the same where they plug into the spindle. The stones are still available for mine, so I guess they haven’t changed the design on the mandrels either. I have worn out almost all of the stones I had over the years, and now need to get new ones. Plus I should build up a recirculating fluid system, but I don’t use it much anymore. The old squirt bottle still works fine for the occasional use these days…
Just make sure that the shop has a hone that is long enough to pickup BOTH bushing bores at the same time. This ensures that they are aligned on the same axis.
And a sizing sleeve to true the stones. Even with the long mandrels, when honing the bushings, it doesn’t wear the stones evenly because to keep the bushings both on stones all the time, the center of the mandrel doesn’t do anything. So the ends wear more than the center.
wow, sorry for the delay in my reply but i sure do thank everyone that chimed in. so, i did order the deluxe king pin kit from speedway. why, well....it's deluxe therefore it must be better...right? i guess that whole "it goes to 11 not 10, that's better ..right" quote will not apply. so what is the deal with the needle bearings and why is everyone against them? are they so bad that i should return them and get a standard kit? i don't mind doing that but i'd like to know why. also if i do that, it sounds like a 50/50 split on machine shop and DIY if i can find the tool. i will check the classifieds here and see if one is still available and post when i got it figured. thanks again for all the info! cheers
hi and thanks for replying to my post on king pins and reamers. can you tell me who had the post for a reamer? i looked thru about 30 pages and didn't see one and a search showed one from 2020 but nothing else. thanks
gdrummer, as I first mentioned, a self aligning reamer allows you to ream both bushings to exactly the same measurements along the same axis. They aren't cheap and actually require some skill to use and you will pay less and get a better job by taking your bushings, kingpins and spindles to a machine shop, that's the bottom line. Anyone that claims that they can do a spindle/bushing fitment using those $20 reamers is simply full of it. There is absolutely no way they can chuck up a reamer in a drill press or even a Bridgeport mill and have the bushings come out exactly as done with a Sunnen hone. I listened to one clown telling people that "he does one side and flips the spindle over and does the next side and then uses a hammer to insert the kingpin"! WHAT!!! Hey, it's your car and you can do what ever you want, but if you want your bushings to come out perfectly, use the machine shop method and if you want to use needle bearings and think that they will make a difference in your steering , good luck!
Sorry, I just searched reamer and it came up. Guess I didn't read all the words, it was an old posting. I just had my bushings reamed with a hand reamer. There is an 86 year old mechanic who still goes to work every day and he has a reamer and he did my spindles, perfectly. You don't say where you are located or perhaps someone in your area could help you. Warren
It is great that Sunnen stayed with the same mandrel mounting design over the last 100 years, unlike most other technologies with planned obsolescence. My first Sunnen hone was from the 1920's I believe... It was mounted to an old Fordson tractor axle bell. I did later add a coolant reservoir and pump. I then found this bench mounted unit at the LA Roadsters swap meet. I set it up on an old Craftsman saw stand It gave many years of service, but then was recently offered this unit for free. It was an industrial unit, so painted grey. It must have been sitting near something corrosive, as all the bare metal parts were very crusty. I disassembled it, cleaned and painted it red like an automotive machine. It has a few upgrades over the smaller machine. One being a bigger motor and then higher speed capacity. It also has a multistage coolant bin system, similar to a gold mining sluice box. This really helps to seperate out the bronze filings from the honing fluid.
How do you know the fit is proper? Is it by sliding the KP in, etc, or just years of feel? Or are inside mics needed, etc. I’m just trying to get an understanding. Thanks.
And I thought mine was old! Holy bat machine Robin, that thing looks great! As do the other ones. I’ve been on the website and they have the same mandrels. I need some motivation to restore the machines I have been collecting. Or find someone like you to take them and do it.
This video shows pretty much the same way I do them. Just by feel. Keep checking until the pin just fits and slides in smoothly.
My pilot reamers are adjustable so I grab the .812 and wind her all the way skinny, make a pass and check my fit, cpl turns in to make her fatter make a pass and check the fit. I do that until the king pin just slips in and out by hand. Works perfect every time far as I can tell
50 Years ago I went to the local Ford Dealership and borrowed their reamer. Did the job and brought it back
Yes its by feel, the pin slides into one bushing smoothly but with just enough play that you think you feel it move when you wiggle it back and forth, then try just the other bushing the same way, then the pin just glides into both bushings with ease. That's as close as I can describe it. NOW when setting the lower spindle bearing, the important part, ALWAYS pre pack the bearing with grease. You DONT want the bearing just to push in. The lower bearing must have preload. To do this I shim until I'm at the point that the bearing won't fit. I then take a hammer (scared yet?) And I hold the handle in my hand and use the end of the handle, not the head!, and lightly tap the bearing in. Like I'm using a knife to stab something not swinging the handle. By using a stabbing motion I can "feel" how much pressure it's taking to move the bearing. I'm probably moving the handle end an 1-1/2" of movement is all. Now once I get the "feel" for the lower bearing and it's seated (now understand if it's too tight and the bearings not moving with the small jabs I will stop, remove and pull a shim out and start again) but now I'm happy with bearing fit, next step is I take that same hammer and give a couple love taps on the top of the spindle to make sure the shims are seated, then a couple love taps to the bottom straight up on the spindle to make sure the bearing is seated, yes I'm using the hammer head this time and I use a 1 lb hammer. Now with this done I swing the spindle back and forth, I want it were I can freely move it thru its motion with just a hint of resistance. If I can just take a finger or sneeze on it and it moves its too loose. Now why does this matter ??? Because the bearing is SUPPORTING the weight of the vehicle so I want absolutely no play in the bearing, because that bearing also has to turn. ANY PLAY and driving the vehicle thru pot holes, railroad tracks, etc and that play allows the spindle to work as a sledgehammer and slowly beat that bearing and as it does the play will get bigger and bigger until it's binding and taking the bushings with it. Also I do ALL fitting and feel without grease other than just the bearing, grease will give you false feelings in the fit of everything else. Once I like the fit, the feel and the resistance when turning the spindle by hand then I finish putting the caps, grease zerks in etc and grease everything AND make sure I have grease coming out everywhere then I know the bushings are greased good. ONE last note, once you grease them the spindle WILL BE HARDER TO TURN ! THATS JUST FINE !! LEAVE THEM ALONE !! we don't care about that. Sorry so long but that's what goes into fitting a kingpin AND having it last for along time. The guy that taught and mentored me had been doing it that way from the mid 1950's and the guy that taught and mentored him had been doing it that way from late 30's. Both men had stellar reputations for their quality of workmanship and in my area I'm well known for mine... ...
@NealinCA what a beautiful machine and wish I had one like that or even space for one. Unfortunately I passed on a sunnen but a newer model but wouldn’t have passed on a beautiful machine like yours.
The Jalopy Journal
