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Technical Front axle alignment on 30 Tudor.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by paulsherman, Oct 3, 2024.

  1. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    Hi all,

    Apparently, I've been a member for a while without posting.

    I picked up a 30 Tudor project from an estate a while back. Most of the parts are here and a lot of work was done before the owner died. He was going for a 50's era(ish) build. Skinny tires, reversed rear rims, spit wishbone with 2 1/2 inch drop, '49 pickup flathead, etc.

    The challenge I've run into is with the front axle. It is not square with the frame (the frame is square). It's off 1 3/8 inches (front to back) where I measured at (kingpins to rear body bracket).

    The wishbones weren't mounted to the frame when I got the car. I installed Speedway's bolt in mounts in the same location on each side and knew then that it wasn't square - the adjustments are different for each side, so they're not the same length. But they have enough adjustment to make up the difference.

    Considering that the front wishbones were hanging loose at the back and a few other incomplete items on the front, I think the late owners friend just stuck the components in place with no adjustment. So the axle and spring may be mis-aligned with the frame due to that. And, it would be consistent with some of the other work I've found - what's complete is done pretty well. But some is just put in place with no adjustment yet.

    My question - how do I move the axle and spring to make up the difference? Can I loosen the front u bolts and shift it then? Or???

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 3,295

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    I'd cut it apart and reinstall the brackets in the right locations. 1-3/8" is a lot and could possibly cause drivability problems due to the fact that the axle will swing in different size arc's side to side.

    Like I used to tell my customers, think of the frame and suspension of your car as the foundation under your house- would you be happy if I just jacked legged it just to get it to hold up your home or would you want it fixed right ?

    ....
     
  3. Phil P
    Joined: Jan 1, 2018
    Posts: 529

    Phil P
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you're sure the frame and front cross member are square I would definitely loosen the u bolts to see how much the spring will shift in the cross member or if there is any interference between the two.

    Phil
     
    Tim likes this.
  4. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 21,700

    alchemy
    Member

    First get a pair of wishbones that are the same length on each side. Pretty dumb to fix a mistake with another mistake.
     
    Fogger, Jibs, '29 Gizmo and 3 others like this.
  5. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,980

    Fordors
    Member

    How did you determine the frame is square? I’ve always checked a frame by giving it a look for obvious damage, unusual welds and most importantly by checking for diamond. By measuring from a radiator mounting hole at the front (for example) and a rear crossmember rivet diagonally and then doing the same on the other side you can check for diamond in the frame. A good frame will show very little, and hopefully no difference in the measurements.
    A variation of 1 3/8” at the front axle seems like a lot, can you actually move a front axle that much given the limited clearance between the crossmember and the front spring?
     
  6. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,511

    31Apickup
    Member

    Pull the wishbones, cut and reweld the bungs so their the same length or replace them as Alchemy stated.
     
  7. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    Thanks for the feedback so far.

    Regarding the wishbones - they ARE the same length, except for the position of the the tie rod ends. They can become the same length - there's plenty of adjustment in them via screwing the tie rod ends in or out. I had to adjust the tie rod ends to compensate for the difference. If the axle/spring was square with the frame, they would be the same length.

    I measured the frame squareness by measuring diagonally from the farthest point forward I could access without the engine/transmission in the way to the opposite rear corner.

    Summary - the frame is square, the wishbones are the same length except for the tie rod end adjustment and there's enough adjustment to make the wishbones the same length if the axle/spring were square with the frame.

    How do I move the front axle so it is square with the frame (and everything else)?
     
  8. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    The brackets are in the same location on each side. Do you want me to move one forward or backward on the frame so they're at different distances front to back?
     
  9. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,779

    jaracer
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    So the wishbones are not the same length from end to end. Adjust them to the same length and see if you can attach the tie rod ends to the frame brackets. There may be enough play in the spring and shackles. You might try loosening the spring attachment bolts at the crossmember. If you can get the now equal length wishbones to attach to the frame, something is bent in the spring, axle, or crossmember.
     
    X-cpe likes this.
  10. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 21,700

    alchemy
    Member

    If the wishbones are the same length, the frame is square, and the axle is square to the frame, your wishbone mounts should be the same distance from the front crossmember. Sounds like you haven’t found the bent/crooked/miss-measured item yet.
     
  11. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 35,139

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I would do just as you are thinking, loosen the U bolts. Pull/push the axle so it is square with the frame and adjust the rod ends. Provided that everything on the frame is actually evenly in place. Meaning that the reference points you used to locate your brackets are even and the brackets are actually even from the front crossmember on each side. If you are off 3/8 inch you should have to move one side back 3/16 inch to be even as the other side should move forward 3/16 of an inch. Rod ends may be off a thread or two for what ever reason.
     
  12. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 5,980

    Fordors
    Member

    Have you ever established the wheelbase at the original Model A 103.5”? Remove the tie rod ends from the wishbone brackets, set the wheelbase evenly and if everything else is square and correct as you say then you will be able to adjust the rod ends and bolt up the radius rods.
     
    hotrodjack33 likes this.
  13. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    And this loops back to 'how' do I set the wheelbase evenly? Loosen the ubolts for the front axle and move the axle? Can I easily move the axle when I do that, or will I need to use a come-along?
     
  14. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    This is how I found the issue in the first place. The wish bones were the same length and the brackets are at the same place on the frame. When I first tried to mount the wishbones to the frame brackets one would not go - I had to change the length for it to go in. Now that the body is off the frame, I was able to measure everything. That's when I found the difference, everything is square except for the front axle. I want to know if it's possible to move it, and if so, how. Can I just loosen the u-bolts and move it in the crossmember? If so, can I do that by pushing pulling by hand, or will I need to use a come-along, etc.?
     
  15. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    And that's the rub, the axle is not square to the frame, it's not square in the crossmember. I wanted to know how to square the axle in the frame/crossmember.
     
  16. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    After yesterday's responses I went back and double checked measurements. All is consistent with what I thought.
    One new measurement - I measured the axle in the crossmember - it's not square in the crossmember.

    Which takes me back to my original question - how do I adjust the axle so it is square? Is it as simple as loosening the ubolts? If so, what tools do I need to move the axle? Can I just move it by hand or do I need special tools?
     
  17. chucka
    Joined: Oct 29, 2018
    Posts: 92

    chucka

    If I've read all this correctly, yes, you should be able to loosen the U-bolts and move the axle by hand. There's a lot of leverage at the axle end, pushing/pulling forward 7/8 on one side will move the other side back 7/8 and, it seems to me, should then be square, no?
     
    X-cpe likes this.
  18. chucka
    Joined: Oct 29, 2018
    Posts: 92

    chucka

    Where are you, Paul?
     
  19. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 18,640

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    Pictured always help but until then here are my thoughts.

    Sounds like you’ve either got a broken leaf spring or the spring is not set in the cross member correctly.

    with the wishbones even length, the axle not bent, the tie bolt from the leaf pack into the hole in the cross member and everything g bolted tight with the u bolts it should all be square.

    Earlier this summer a friend had a very similar problem and it ended up that his U bolts were not as tight as he thought on the leaf pack and it had jostled around.

    if you have a spring pack with fewer leaves than stock it is possible have the bottom bracket slid onto the u bolts and it as tight as they will go and your not actually touching the bottom of the spring pack. It could be very close and you don’t notice that it’s actually not touching.

    this would leave room for this kind of error.

    typically a spacer is welded to the bottom bracket/ pad that slips over the ends of the u bolts under the leaf pack to make up the gap. Though there are other ways around this as well.

    it sounds to me you either have a broken leaf, leaf pack not properly secured/ placed in the cross member or your axle is bent.


    You’ll figure it out, I’d losen the u bolts and start there.
     
  20. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,177

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The axle should move quite easily by hand with the u bolts freed off. I'd look to take some or all of the weight off the axle / spring by jacking the frame and placing on stands. It should all go together quite easily without having to lever components.

    Chris
     
  21. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,311

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    I would not measure to frame brackets to determine axle location. Need to measure to the center, or specific spot on the rear axle to be sure the wheels are square to each other. If you've already determined the frame is square, then need to be sure both front and rear axles are square to the frame, not just the front axle. Then once both are square, measure axle to axle to square them to each other.
     
    flynbrian48 likes this.
  22. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 8,495

    flynbrian48
    Member

    The frame is square. Wishbones are the same length. Wishbone mounts are equal distance from the crossmember. And yet, your wheelbase is 1.5" longer on one side than the other? Either your measurements are off re: frame square, length of wishbones, or your crossmember isn't square in the frame, or your measurements are incorrect, or all the above. There's no way the wheelbase can be off by that much if all the above are accurate. Show some photos of what you've got, I can't imagine how that can be possible unless one or all your components are totally knackered.
     
    Happydaze likes this.
  23. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 18,640

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    @flynbrian48 the wishbones length is a bit deceiving. The wishbones themselves are the same length, one side has the rod end threaded out further to make it longer. If the axle was square to the frame he would thread it back in and they’d be the same side to side
     
  24. You say in the first post measured at kingpin. But as others have said, bent axle which also moved the spring somewhere between the kingpins. Would,nt a second pair of eyes with a fresh view to the situation be a idea ?
     
  25. nochop
    Joined: Nov 13, 2005
    Posts: 4,279

    nochop
    Member
    from norcal

  26. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    While the wishbones themselves are the same length, I had to adjust the tie rod ends differently so the wishbones would mount to the brackets. Hence, with the tie rods ends sticking out different lengths the wishbone/tie rod end combos are not the same length.
     
  27. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    Perhaps, but I don't have ready access to anyone with Model A knowledge in the area.
     
  28. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    North Oregon coast, near Astoria.
     
  29. paulsherman
    Joined: Oct 3, 2024
    Posts: 24

    paulsherman

    The rear axle is square with the frame. Everything is square except the front axle/spring.
     
  30. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,511

    31Apickup
    Member

    Can you post some pictures to see what you have.
     

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