1952-59 Ford Frustrated with this "heating up" thing!!!

Hey kids,
Here we are again for another summer of fun! : ) ...Save one thing...the ever feared "rising of the temp gauge needle".

If the outside temp is anything above 65 degrees, she heats up on me if I drive it anything over 7 miles or so at highway speed! It will hit the normal mark on the temp gauge, hang there for a little bit, and then continue to creep up to the needles width below the "H" mark. and it's really beginning to tick me off...last night it actually started to vapor lock, it seems, because it will begin to spit and sputter unless I let off the gas for a couple seconds, then ease back on it, and it will be fine.(I'll solve that by increasing the fuel line size from the pump to the carb...a little tip I just learned this winter from fella in Forest Lake, MN).
But Idling in a drive through on a warm day or hot day? Forget it, that temp needle will shoot up. Even sitting and waiting for the darned stop light to turn green is grounds for panic if it takes too long to turn green.

If I slow down and drive about 55 mph, the temp needle will stay right betwee the the normal mark and the hot mark on the gauge, maybe a hare to the hot side. WHY?

It's the original 239 with EAB heads. Rebuilt last summer buy a good builder, bored 30 overto clean up the cylendar walls. Original carb, rebuilt by me. Runs like a rolex other than the damned thing keeps heating up on me.

Everything else is new on the engine, waterpumps, temp sending units, oil pressure sender, you get the idea. I have the pertronix ignition in it, and checked the timing again yesterday, it's dead on. so yesterday morning, I again put two brand new 160 degree thermostats in it yesterday. The radiator was boiled and cleaned (two pinholes found) last summer. The overflow tube on the radiator is clear. I have it mixed about 50/50 ati-freeze and "distilled" water.

The only I can think of is that I only have about 400 miles on it since the rebuild, and the oil seemed a little "thin", but still just below the full mark on the dip stick (obviously losing a little to the new rebuild).

Would changing the oil make any difference at all? I think what the guy put in it was just 5W-30.

Could it possibly be building extra heat at higher RPM's?

Looking for some tips from the Pros(that's you guys and gals)

Thanks,
Mark

 

would a higher temp termostat help? I was told to use 180 or 190 here in 100+ degree texas heat. don't see anything about your fan - sorry - i am no pro

 

Good questions.

Yes, sorry it's all stock. Stock fan and setup(no shroud), original stock radiator, though the radiator was boiled and pressure tested. Boiling it is "supposed" to bake out anything that would obstruct any flow. But how's a guy to know for sure, I guess.

Never thought of stepping "up" in temp with the T-stats. That's crazy enough it might work. Hmmm...

Anybody think it's worth a shot to step UP the thermostats to 180's???

 

well from what ive read and only trying to help things along . stats should be 180 or they hang open to long. even thought the radiator was cleaned doesnt mean that the tubes arent plugged , ive had this before where ive replaced most of the car radiator done twice . finally replaced radiator core never got hot again . the other thing is that the new fuels lacking of lead and adding clean burn chemicals there run leaner and hotter also that engine and all it oil system was designed as new for 30 weight oil not 5w30 change oil it is a heat disapator . as far as the fuel goes i get get a lot of guys that call me about running hot and ping even when timing is ok . put 1/2 quart oil in tank when filling from empty lawn mower oil non detergant for every 16 gallons this will ot make car smoke but cools valve system like lead stops pinging helps with the vapors lowers temp a little . when i worked for gm in heavy truck and rv we would get alot of customers say ping and vapoer lock from rv pulling up hills in higher temp areas , gms fix was for every 40 gal of fuel to add 1 quart of 30 wieght oil well i thought they were nuts , well there the engineers and would you know it it worked so i use same solution today and it helps alot . but i would get radiator redone .

 

Is your raditor cap holding pressure?

Is the radiator core heating up evenly?

 

Good idea. Think I'll change oil here in a day or two just to rule that out.

mjlangley

Cap is new, and doesn't allow anything fluid to flow out of the overflow hose (until I shut the car off when it's heating up. then it spits it some out). So I would say yes to that one.

Heating up evenly? I've just been reading about that very thing and will check into that tonight. It won't start to get overly hot unless I drive it, so I'll do that tonight and then when I get it back home, check for cool spots on teh radiator by hand, correct???

 

what is the actual temp when your gauge reads hot? it may not be as hot as you think. do you have a temp gun that you can point at the different points to get a reading? I was reading about the need for 2 temp gauges for our engine because you could get a stuck tstat on one side and not even know it. anyone have advice on this - i am interested too - my car still has original water pumps and fan - so far temps top at 190 but i haven't been driving it much yet and i have only one gauge.

 

I don't have one of those guns, but my buddy has a pricey one that I plan on borrowing as well.

No idea what themp it's at when it starts to run hot...factory temp gauge just goes from C to H with a hash mark about 3/4 of the way to H. I may have to hook up actualy temp gauges to figure out what side, if not both, is heating up.

And yes, with the flatty's, it's two sending units leading into one signal, so there's no way to tell unless you have some other means.

 

Yes - many of the old "C---H" gauges are out to lunch. And using an infared "gun" is your best way to quickly check up on them. They are very helpful at finding stopage points in radiators as well as the obvious checks at the thermostat housings. Best (highest quality for the $) infared I could find was at Sears - but borrowing works too.

Usually these closed cooling systems run up to equilibrium - or they completely overcome the cap pressure and boil over. Is yours reaching boil over or just "H"? Its one thing to vent an over-filled system - and another to be flat-a$$ boiling over.

Some of the dash gauges can be (re)adjusted to put the marker in the middle if the running temp is acceptable and the reading is off.

 

Thanks Greenbird56! My buddy drag races his '64 Nova wagon and I've helped him check exhaust temps with it for each pipe on the headers...I actually choked on my beer when he told that little infrared gun ran him a little over $200. Anyway...

No, it's never flat-a$$ed boiled over. When I park it when it's "hot", maybe three or four ounces or so will run out of the overflow hose onto the street. I've seen the kind of boiling over you're referring to...nothing even remotely to that.

 

I would have thought the 160 degree T-stats would be enough to keep it cooler at least though. I mean, if I DID have the 180's in there like the factory calls for, I'd really be heating up, right?

 

Let me run this thought past you guys...

Sitting here thinking about how the cooling system should work...

Is it possible that because I have 160 T-stats in the car that they are staying open too long, allowing fluid to flow through too quickly that the radiator doesn'thave time to cool it, so I'm just cycling hot coolant through the engine??????

If factual, then if I had 180 T-stats in it, they would open later, and "open and close" more frequently, giving the radiator time to dissipate the heat from the coolant that's "IN" the radiator, which would then be cycled through the engine as the T-stats "open and close"(respectfully stated. I know they don't just "spring" open and closed), in effect, cooling the engine.

Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just talking out of my a$$, trying to find an easy fix...

 

i THINK you are correct - if the water in the radiator got up to 160 then the tstats would stay open and the water would just circulate - at 180 they should stay closed for a longer period allowing the water/coolant in the radiator to cool more b4 opening again......but i really dont know so i should probably keep my mouth shut

and yes - i always look for the easiest fix but sometimes it works

 

When the water temp reaches the opening temp of the t-stat she begins to regulate water through there - and once it reaches full open it stays open until the temp drops enough to close it. So if your "steady state" equilibrium temperature is higher than 180° - then either one of the t-stats (160° or 180°) would be wide open - the 20° difference would not be changing the ultimate system temperature at all. Using the higher temp t-stat makes the system warm up to (and stay at) a heat value closer to ordinary running temp. It makes the carb idle set-up more stable than having a wider range of temp to tune to. Make sense?

Usually you will find that the equilibrium hot idle temperature is a fairly consistent value above the outdoor ambient. For example lets say its +115° - so when its 80° outside your equilibrium temp is 195°. The t-stats would be wide open (exceeds 160° or 180° either one). When ambient drops below 65° then the 180° t-stat would be regulating - trying to keep water temp up to 180° - but a 160° would allow it to drop clear down to 45° ambient before regulating. The t-stat rating sets the low temp - but not the high. The difference being that the behavior of the idle tune at 180° (15° drop) would be much more predictable than at 160° (35° drop).

And the heater will work better and the choke won't be required so long.

 

Going to 180 stats may help, but I'd do all my diagnosis with the 160's. During warm weather, they don't really open and then close completely. Your going to get into a temperature equalibrium with the stat about half to full open, depending on the engine load ( heat generated ) and air flow (disipated heat ) through the radiator. I would also change to straight 40W for the summer. Older engines have larger clearances, the 5W30 is not good for them. You should see about a 30 degree temp drop or more in the coolant from top to bottom of radiator, depending on it's ability to get rid of the heat from airflow through it. Your fan should be no more than 1 1/2 inches from the radiator, with at least 4 blades on the fan. A shroud is used to help the fan pull more air through the radiator.
If you're not pinging when the engine is warm, I'd advance the timing a little at a time until you just hear a small ping. Then back off a degree. Retarded timing will cause the engine to run hotter as the exhaust temp is much higher. With a flatty and the exhaust ports right through the cooling p***ages, that will add more heat to the coolant. Make sure your float level is correct and not pushing your fuel lean, and also make sure your idle mixture is set a little rich. If your fuel lines and carb can handle it material wise, try a half gallon or so of alcohol ( in the paint section of Home Depot or Lowes ) in the tank and see what the coolant temp does. Alky will cool the combustion temp down and also raise your octane. Pressure on the cap is not that big of a deal. If the new cap is holding pressure and not boiling over, you're fine. At sea level you get approximately 3 degrees over boiling ( 212F) for every pound of pressure. A 10 pound cap will increase your boiling point to 212 + 30 or about 242 F. Make sure you're getting good flow by observing down the radiator with the cap off when it's running and warm. WEAR SAFETY GL***ES.
Basically, you're looking for good coolant flow through the radiator and good or better air flow through the radiator.

 

Ahhhhh, yeah! I think I'm getting that now!!!! Holy ****! That makes total sense!

So what you said was(in my head anyway) A t-stat really only regulates the warm up temp and the "minimun" temp at which the engine can operate! So if the normal operating temp of the engine is 195, or even 187 let's say, then BOTH T-stats would be fully open anyway! So it wouldn't matter which one you had in there for that matter. So since I only run it between april and october, I'll stick with the 160 degree T-stats...
...until I figure out what the real problem is.

Right? lol

I also picked up a new oil filter and will be putting in straight 30 weight for sure tonight. Unless I do go 40, But I think I'll try 30 at least for now.

 

A few things to look at - the timing is set right at idle - but is it advancing with RPM as you would like for it to? Load-O-Matic dizzies can be a pain. Could be putting a heat load into the motor that it has a hard time recovering from - seems a long shot.

Because you get a cooling advantage to driving - air speed through the radiator increases - what fan is installed? More blades or more pitch can move more air at idle.

Are you using the original pulley set-up? A "speed-up" arrangement can get you more water being pumped and more air speed at idle.

Do the flatheads incorporate a warm-up device / water p***age - byp*** tube or port directly from the motor back to the water pump? Y-blocks have them and they are "dead short" around the radiator.

 

streetdreams and greenbird56.

Good stuff!!! Note I will be putting at least 30 weight in it tonight or tomorrow. My fan is the original 5 blade fan and the blades are about 3/4" from the radiator. Pullys are all factory. the whole hting is factory...just new! The dang thing should work! lol.

I set the carb float with the little measuring tool I got with the kit, and per the shop manual, and it was right on even when I checked it.didn't have to adjust it at all, so that should be ok. Never had prob with fuel delievery otherwise. Only when it's freakin hot.

I have the idle set at about 595 RPMs give or take...what the manual calls for. And as far as advance goes, No idea how you tell that...vaccuum leak at the advance unit or something?

Nope, no warm-up device on the flatty.

 

You might want to reconsider the 30 Wt oil,the newer oils have reduced the ZDDP content a bunch from the old days,not good for flat tappet older engines,my suggestion is use Motorcraft 15W 40 Diesel which has more ZDDP than Shell Rotella which recently reduced it's ZDDP content (thanks! EPA) Back in the day when I raced flatheads we used to remove the thermostats and replace them with large washers with about a 1/2" hole in them, the idea was to slow down water flow because the dual water pumps actually moves the coolant too fast thru the systems radiator before it can cool it down another trick was removing every other impeller on the water pumps on circle track cars,adapting a shroud would be a wise move also.

 

I agree - if the cooling system worked when the car was new - it ought to work now.

The reason I asked about the fan blades - is that your album shows a 3 blade original fan. The three blade that came on my bird wouldn't do diddly squat at 550 rpm.

To check the advance - the Load-O-Matic dizzies "predict" engine rev's by venturi (intake airspeed) vacuum and advance accordingly. Works (sort of) like an aircraft airspeed sensor - fast moving air (in the carb throat) flowing over an orfice provides the vacuum signal. Which then makes the dizzie advance.

If you are watching the timing marks with a timing light and vacuum is raised at the distributor - you should see some timing increase. I've done this before by running another vehicle next to the "patient" and "stealing" some vacuum off of the intake manifold vacuum port of the ***istant. I suppose in your situation - you could simply steal manifold vacuum off your own engine for the test?

 

JeffB2, good reminder. Forgot to mention. Anybody now running a flat tappet cam needs to use an additive now for the ZDDP and alot of other vitamins and minerals taken out of engine oils. Lucas makes a great ZDDP additive.
I agree with Greenbird, it cooled when Ford designed and released it, it should cool now, considering everything is correct and normal. Obviously, something isn't.
My suggestion is check the coolant flow from the pumps at the radiator neck, the temperature difference between the top and bottom of the radiator, and the airflow through the radiator.
Keep the forum informed. We'll solve this yet or drive you crazy trying.
I had a customer bring a non cooling while driving '60 TBird to me last year. Similar deal. Freshly rebuilt 352 by someone, 160 stat, custom aluminum radiator big enough to cool a Cat D9, electric fan and shroud and it still wouldn't cool. Had it to 5 shops charging him to add stuff and pull intakes to check gaskets. The last shop suggested water wetter.
After checking everything we've talked about and then some, I pulled the heads and cleaned all the mud, scale and debris out of the ( rebuilt ? ) cylinder block cooling p***ages.
Off came the cheezy electric fan and no ram flow shroud, on went a 7 blade A/C fan, fan shroud and side plates on the radiator to keep the air from skirting around the rad at speed. Work fine now.
Moral of the story. Trust nothing, check everything.

 

will it ever over heat at idle? once it heats up while driving itif you park and leave it running at idle dose it cool down?

if it truly only gets hot while driving it might be a fan isue. like it might be on backwards. if you put a peice of paper in front of the radiator with the engine ideling dose it pull it to the radiator or away from the radiator?

coolant flowing to fast through a radiator can cause one to over heat also.

 

Sweetdreams is pretty much right on with the problem with the T-Bird heating up problem. I have found the same problems before and it would lead back to stuff and crud still in the block and head water p***ages being plugged up.(Even after a complete rebuild) Also run a heavy duty cooling fan. I used to have the same kinda problems doing parades. When I changed the fan it cured all heating up problems.

 

Wow!!! Thanks guys!!!! You're all the best!

Fist off, Greenbird, totally my mistake, obviously hit the wrong number key...I have the original "3" blade factory fan on her. No idea how I typed a 5. Any idea what fan(s) would be compatible with a stock setup for this baby?

You know, I actually looked at the Rotella 30 wieght but thought that might be TOO heavy duty for it. So I just bought 5 quarts of Valvoline 30 weight. maybe I'll take it back and exchange it??? It was a bunch cheaper than 5 quarts of the valvoline 30W. I know I saw a morotcraft "something" there. I'll check to see if it's the 15w/40.

"oldladysmad" - Yes. If I drive it and it heats up, and then I stop and sit at a light, or sit idleing somewhere, it will heat up even more. Not sure what that means.

I think I'll see if I can borrow my buddies infrared temp gauge tonight and see what kind of readings I get across the radiator AND across the heads. and while doing so, check to see if there's turbulence in the coolant with the cap off as it warms up. Then take it for a spin and come back and hit it with the infrared temp reader.

I'll also throw the timing light on her quick and have my wife slowly raise the rpms while I check to see where the timing mark goes.

I'll report back!!! Like I've always said. Hopefully finding the cause for our headaches will help somebody with theirs!

Thanks so much! Looks like I've got my work cut out for me tonight!!!

Thanks again boys!

 

Ive had a dozen or so ford flats and never have had troubles like that they always run cool the vapor lock is fixed with larger fuel feed line to the carb but a 1954 ford 1956 ford and a 1963 chrysler i had would all do the same idle all day but driving would over heat they all had plugged radiators . Even after boiling them cleaning them out and flushing there only so much that comes clean that way . The crysler i had after gettinga new radiator i cut the old one in half over 1/2 of the tubes were plugged almost closed in the center . I still say from my trials and tribulations id get the radiator recored or replaced , see if there is someone were can use there radiator for a test run...

 

The Motorcraft 15W40 Diesel comes in a 5 quart jug about $16 at Wal-Mart or Autozone.Ford in a Ford is always good.

 

Thanks guys.

Hell yeah man! I remember you telling me about the larger fuel line deal when I picked up that old radio from you last winter up at your shop! GREAT tip! I'll swing into NAPA for some fittings on the way home tonight. I think it's 1/4" right now...just step it up to 3/8" I believe is what you said you had your luck with.

I'll talk to the dude at the little shop that boiled it and see if he can offer info on recoring it or something. Seems like a solid guy.

To walmart it is!

 

Ok. I haven't had a chance to run over to my buddy's place to borrow the infrared temp gun yet, but may have learned something in the mean time.

I changed the oil in her tonight, Motorcraft 15w/40. Not that that has much to do with it running hot really, but that's done.

Anyway, I started it and let it idle until it warmed up to the normal mark on the temp gauge. Ran for 25 30 minutes and never moved off of that mark. Of course it's only 68/70 degrees out now, so testing it in the heat won't be an option for several days. It never "heats up" as bad when it's cooler outside.

Checked the air flow and at idle (about 590 RPM's) I could get a 9x11 inch piece of cardboard to stay up anywhere I put it on the radiator. It almost ****ed the 8.5x11 piece of paper right through it, lol, so I'm guessing it's pulling plenty of air.

Both upper radiator hoses were damned hot, couldn't hold them for more than a few seconds. Both lower rad hoses were much, much cooler. My four year old could have held them. "TOO" cool?

So I go on to check for cool spots by hand on the "front" of the radiator (all while its running) and I found that the top 1/4 of the radiator was REALLY hot, and cooled off considerably the further I moved my hand down and side to side.

The lower p***enger side was fairly warm, but no where near as hot as the top. Then the lower driver's side was basically cool I would say. Actually if the the radiator were divided into fourths, vertically, the driver's side quarter was basically cool from bottom to top, until I hit the very top, then got warmer the further I moved to the p***enger side.

So am I wasting my time borrowing an infrared temp gun next or can more still be learned from that?(head temps? temps at the water necks?) Or Is this enough to tell someone that it's simply the radiator???

I wish the darned thing would just TELL me... Back to the 50's is in a week and a half!!!

Thanks Gents

 

1: Older radiators need to be cleaned inside and out,

2: Our newer epa blend of gas will make the cars run hotter

3: Get one of the laser beam tempature reading guns from hf tools, great way to find out were the engine is hot and cold, i have found cooling problems with this tool. And you can check the gauge via this method to.

4:

 

Ok, so what have we learned so far.
* good air flow at idle.
* temperature change from top to bottom of radiator.
So it looks like the radiator and air flow at idle are good enough to pull 30 or so degrees from the coolant we talked about earlier.
The IR gun is next. We need numbers. Especially to see the temps of the warm and cool areas at the bottom of the radiator. Right now w/o the IR readings, I would guess there is a blockage in the radiator where the cool area is.
When we know what the IR " top water" temp is, some engine tweaks can perhaps be made, but until you borrow the IR gun, I would set/check the idle mixture to best manifold vacuum and set your idle timing to 2 degrees more than you have now.
Then see if you notice any change for the better by the "feel" method.