Hi there guys. 1956 223 six My double action fuel pump started leaking bad from at least one of the (~8) bolts securing the pumps lower body to the top portion and also housing the diaphragm I believe. I can see gas coming thru the threads of the bolt. I'm gonna rip it apart and replace the gasket. 3 questions: - In what position will the actuating arm/lever be when I remove the pump from the block and what should I be concerned about when throwing it back on? - What will happen when I remove the bolts and open the housing? Will a hoard of springs and the diaphragm jump to the floor? - If I come to need an electric or alternate fuel pump, what will be the desired pressure for my holley 1904 1 bbl carb? Thanks for helping. Regards
Rui, I have rebuilt a few of these but it has been several years ago. As I recall, once your remove those bolts that hold the lower portion of the pump, the gasket will be "stuck" to the case. You may have to pry a bit. There should be only one spring that is used to force the diaphragm back. The diaphragm (which actually is your gasket too) will be molded/sealed to a stud. You may be able to press the stud through the diaphragm and the metal washer/plate and reuse it if you have a press. Simply repeen it over once you get your new diaphragm. If you are concerned about losing small parts, I suggest you dis***emble the pump over an old washtub or a baking pan with deep sides.
Thanks for helping Daniel and Brodie. I was thinking I could just apply a coat of sealant on the surfaces, bolts and threads and call it done. I dont have a diaphragm at hand. Most likely I'll ruin this one once I open the case uh? The thing is I can see clearly gas coming through that specific bolt while rubbin it clean with the engine workin... Airtex a good choice? I'm quitin vac wipers so I really don need a double action pump. I'll go with a simple one. Whos runnin electric pumps and at what pressure for the Holley 1904 1 bbl? Pros? Cons? Regards and thanks again.
Have you tried tightening the screws? A single action pump should be easier and cheaper to find. I have been running a double action Airtex on my y-block for over 10 years with no problems.
I have Brodie, with no luck.. Theyr tight. How's the arm lever thing? How should it be placed while installing? Regards.
I keep forgetin the manual. I already read it. Heck, I dont know if I should overhaul it, buy a new mechanical one or an electric inline pump.. How's the pressure issue? I understand these weathered holleys dont like it much pressure. The valve wont hold and it will flood. None of the ones offered by rockauto is rated below 3,5 lbs. Anyone runnin electric fuel pumps? Thanks guys.
You need a low pressure pump like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Fu...essure-Top-Quality-Carter-Brand-/271823585091 Your 1904 likes about 3.5 psi an electric pump is a pusher NOT a puller so this has to be mounted back at the tank.
Jeff, thanks as usual for prompt help. My Ford is already 12V. Do you know if they offer such? Back at the tank where? Inside it? Regards
The electric pump doesn't go inside the tank. It needs to be mounted as close to the tank as possible and below the level of the tank outlet. Usually the easiest spot that fills the bill is on the frame rail. Just cut out an appropriate length of the metal line that will accomodate the pump and a filter. The filter should be on the inlet side of the pump.
Since you converted to 12 volts this should work better: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Dodge-...-02-/181396731006?hash=item2a3c16747e&vxp=mtr This has 5/16" inlets and outlets same as the line coming out of your tank I would use this for a filter between the tank and the pump: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-5-16-FU...NUM-/201314353582?hash=item2edf4541ae&vxp=mtr You DO NOT want to use a filter with a paper element with an electric pump,they can degrade and fry the pump with this filter you can take apart and clean and it is compact for the space you have to work with by the tank. You should always run a relay with an electric pump,this has the proper gauge of wires in this kit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/JEGS-Perfor...Kit-/311109910514?hash=item486f987ff2&vxp=mtr
While we are building your shopping list you may want to consider one of these. http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-OS75-O...bs_auto_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=03CVFMNZVC1JV3YH0292 It will turn off the electric fuel pump when oil pressure drops off when the engine stops even if the key is on. Even if you have a separate switch to turn the electric fuel pump on and the engine stalls fuel will be pumped if you have that separate switch on. One terminal wire goes to the Start terminal on the ignition switch or the small start terminal on your starter solenoid to provide power for starting with no oil pressure. Here are the instructions for a Holley switch that does the same thing. This just shows how it is wired up. You T it into your existing Oil Pressure sending unit. http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/500/510/510-12-810.pdf
Dobbie, Jeff, Jimz, thanks for helping. Ok, so I can go with: A) - 12v low pressure fuel pump mounted below the fuel outlet since these are pusher pumps - cleanable fuel filter, not paper - relay - oil pressure switch or B) A mechanical fuel pump: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mechanical-Fuel-Pump-AIRTEX-4208-/351154979202?hash=item51c277c182&vxp=mtr Given your experience will I run into trouble using the mechanical one due to static pressures on carbs needle? Should I go electric? Regards
Rui, IMO, the Airtex would be way simpler and less expensive. If for some crazy reason you suspect the fuel pressure is too high, you can always add a fuel pressure regulator. They are relatively inexpensive.
Guys, just out of curiosity, what are these two holes? (Im talking about the pic attached ) The gas, after all, seems to come out of these. Regards
hard to tell from pics which holes if you mean the 2 that are one on top of another.I think they are vent holes to allow diaphram to allow pressure out.if leaking out of them may be a good indication diaphram may have a hole (tear)allowing it to put fuel into vent chamber(for lack of a better word).
Pumps a comin. The old one is hard to get off cause someone used some sort of sealant which is glueing it tight. Any ideas to take it out with out the use of blunt force? Besides moderate force i Tryed some thiner with little luck.. Regards
Rui if you have a rubber mallet you may need to give it a few good raps if it is silicone and was good and clean it will hold on very tight.I have had to do the same thing at times especially factory GM valve covers where they use silicone as cost saving and leak proof seal.in fact on many parts where silicone was used on a clean surface.I dought you will damage old pump if you do not have a rubber mallet then place a piece of wood on top and give it a couple of whacks.try not to hit it where it bolts together.if you want you could take a thin blade and slide it between pump and block work it from top to bottom you may not be able to cut all around but do as much as you can.a putty knife will do also use a hammer to drive it between block and pump.there are more tips I have used over the year these should do it for you Barry
OK Barry, thanks for helping. It is in fact some sort of white silicone and its holding it really good. I'll use the rubber mallet, but has it is, I think I'll have to find out some way of cutting the silicone with the thin blade or putty knife you said or maybe soften it with acetone or something. Just dont want to break something on the old pump since I'll try to rebuild. There isnt by chance a hidden socket you can get a wedge into, is it? Can find one. Regards.
Hi Rui I do not think the acetone or any type liquid softener will work.as the silicone is sealing it if liquid could penetrate you would have had an oil leak as the purpose of the silicone was to seal it tight probably due to not having a proper gasket or not trusting gasket.as I said try the method I suggested.you should not hurt pump by using thin blade as the silicone will give before damaging pump or block.try to hammer side to side as you stand less chance of damaging pump.blade only needs to be thin more than sharp as a sharp blade may and will gouge into the pump housing.by hammer I mean use a block of wood or rubber mallet not a metal hammer directly on housing.it will come off just use common sense and patience.
Ok ok., got it. I had already understood the mallet tip. I use rubber and wood mallets often on some metal shaping stuff I like to try and know these are desirable for this task. Thanks for helping Barry, I appreciate it. I'll be in touch. Not to over think this, but when I get the new pump (still hasnt arrived) I'm planning on unscrewing the hold one but without removing the bolts from block. Then I'm gonna bump the car in 3rd gear (like you do when opening points) till I sense the pump will come out straight, not tilting up nor down. This way I'll throw in the new one without mistake on arms position and will not mess up gaskets with fresh sealant. Good plan? Regards.
Also, does anybody have any input on where to find a diapghram for this old pump? Or maybe a whole kit? Maybe some kit that is interchangable with other years's pump? The pump says "AC" (Delco?), its dual action and its mounted on my 1956 223 six. Regards
Rui while I admire you wanting to rebuild your old pump I think that in today's world.due to the age of our cars there is not much in the way of kits available to do our own.NOS would probably not be a good idea if you could find as with everything else today it is cheaper to buy new with modern alcohol resistant diaphragms and valves inside.I would still dis***emble to satisfy my curiosity on where the leak was coming from.but that is me.I did a search for you but found nothing on kits for it not saying they are not available.if you do find a kit I think you will find the cost will be greater than then the new pump you ordered this goes for the dual action one as well.by the time you read this I am sure you will have old one removed
C&G Ford parts advertises kits, http://cgfordparts.com/wwwsectionfiles/cg_cat1_fuel_system_fuel_pump.html , as does the Early Ford Store, http://lbcunited.com/earlyford2/pro.../4420?osCsid=2a813407b96799a2e7c73f8bfe769bc6. But I agree with 54vicky on the cost factor.
Thanks for helping. Dobie, I wrote an e-mail for those 2 suppliers since they do not clearly advertise prices. Lets see what they say. @barry: Yup, NOS wouldnt be a way to go, it had to be a new kit. I'd like to rebuild the pump since I believe she's still up to snuff regarding the remaining parts, and I'd have a spare for the future. Anyway, my new pump is arriving at any time. It has already cleared the international customs center in the UK and I should have it by tomorrow or monday. I havent yet removed the old one since this way I can at least start the car everyday for a bit to keep the gremlins away. I'll have to change the oil anyhow due to the recent electric issues you guys should remember which might have led to gas p***ing through the rings due to difficult starts. Also I was runing w/out a stat which also might have caused gas to get to the oil. Now a probably ruptured diaphragm (gas in oil again probably). I'll go with 20W50 this change, but thats a whole other story (yes I'll be buggin you since the oil plug is freezed). I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks again.
I will follow with others here.that frozen plug could pose a problem be careful as it is mounted in sheet metal as you probably know.what I have done in that situation is to use a 6 point socket NOT 12 then using a 1/2" ratchet without an extension as an extension will let it twist and round off corners causing a bigger problem.now you will find it easier and possibly only way is if you have ramps or jack stands get it high enough to be able to access the plug.then take your socket on ratchet or johnson bar place handle so you can hit it with a heavy hammer heavier the better. I find straight down being the best if possible now strike the handle of ratchet or bar hard use one hand to hold ratchet tight to nut so it will not slip sometimes what I do if not moving then do same with hammer turning ratchet to tightening direction then undo position back and forth tighten loosen tighten loosen.doing this it will act as an impact gun only with more control.where as if you try to just use brute force using only ratchet or bar and pulling you risk tearing the plug out of (tearing metal on pan)just make sure you keep socket tight against pan.a 6 point boxed end wrench would be easier but I have never found a 6 point wrench other than line wrenches.it has been awhile so not sure on size but I am sure there is a metric socket that fits if you do not have a standard (for lack of better word)socket.obviously if this is something you are not comfortable doing the only option will be to drop the pan (a lot of extra work)not mention messy and the need for a new gasket.I will be surprise if the diaphragm is not leaking allowing gas into pan.I would not run engine without changing oil as you risk wiping out crank bearings if a lot of gas in there you should not need to start after sitting for any amount of time.you will not get engine hot enough to allow moisture to burn out of oil causing acid to form.as to oil that is a subject that can give you a lot of choices I would check on the 6 cylinder forums you mentioned in earlier post.choose the one the majority suggest. Barry
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