Hot Rods Gambling on the $Bay . . . Merc Crank - You Guys Weigh In !

Okay - so I'm having my Cup O' Joe . . . getting ready to head out to the shop. Drinking coffee and cruising Evil Bay - always looking at Flathead crap. It is not that I even "need" anything, just can't help myself . . . you know the 'sickness' we all share

So I see "Ford Flathead crankshaft and flywheel" . . . says it has an old Weber flywheel and a 45-47 crank (which isn't worth anything to me).

Hmmm . . . BUT - it has an old Weber Aluminum flywheel . . . worth a couple bucks. But here is the evil way my mind thinks . . . feeble as it may be . . .

"Ran back in the day with a Weber flywheel - in a 59AB block, so it was probably a hotrod engine anyway. Two oil holes in the rod journals - 49-53 crankshaft for sure . . . they probably didn't swap in a 49-53 Ford crank to end up with the same 3 3/4 stroke . . . so maybe it is a Merc crank?"



Now - I use my eyeballs and squint like shit at the small picture??? Hmmmmm - is it a Merc or isn't it???



My mind wants it to be a Merc crank and when I see what looks like a journal oil-hole cleanout plug (barely!) . . . man, I may be seeing things, but that sure looks more like a 5/8 hole than a 3/8 one? Wish I could see it better . . .

Zoom up a bit . . . blurry as hell . . . but it HAS to be a Merc crank . . .



Talk to seller - costs $85 to ship the whole thing here . . . Oh WTF, why not do a little XMAS gamble. (Dumb Ass that I am . . . )

I win the auction - only bid . . . am the proud owner of WHAT? WHO the hell knows - stupid gambling bastard that I am.

Got the crank and flywheel for $50, costs $85 to ship . . . I'll have $135 in it -- not even sure if it is a Merc, but Hell -- give it a whirl.

Is it a Merc or isn't it . . . guess we'll find out in a week or so.

Better get my ass out to the shop -- before my wife finds out the goofy shit I just did

 

Nothing like a crap shoot to start the day off with! LOL hell if its merc you win and if now and its a good crank it will sell. Seems like a win /win to me.

 

Dont feel bad I do the same stuff all the time ,If it doesnt work ,Ill split and make more money ,Sometimes at a loss.......

 

Certainly not much money at risk there.......more upside potential than downside----relax my friend.

 

One guy who will loose will be the postman that has to drag it to your door.

 

.....Once in a while you have to take a chance......I did'nt see it,otherwise I would have bid on it....You got a deal.

 

Just because it has a 5/8 clean out doesn't mean it's a Mercury Crank.

Some 4" strokers were know to leave the factory with the smaller clean out.


-But You pays your money and you takes your chances...


good luck


moe




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Flathead (and engine?) newbie here; shouldn't you be concerned that it's laying flat in the pictures? Couldn't it warp that way?

 

turn it over every once in awhile if you are that worried about it
or just turn it over a few thousand times when you start it for the first time and let it find itself.


jmho.

moe


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If you're ever wondering in the future if a 49-53 crank is the Merc variety, get the measurement across the flat sides of the second crank throw (the wide one second from the front). The Ford crank is approx 5-3/4" across. The Merc crank is approx 6.0" across. You can't trust the clean out plug size. Some Merc cranks had the "0M" or 1M" cast into one of the crank throws but not all had that. Final proof of course is to simply measure the stroke. Set the crank in a couple V'cut wood saddles. Spot a rod journal at its lowest position and measure distance to the floor/bottom surface. Then rotate the same crank journal to its highest position and remeasure. Should be approx 3-3/4" for the Ford and 4.0" for the Merc. Trying to get the seller to do this (honestly) may be another matter....

 

Not to worry, the flywheel is worth more than that. If I had seen it, I probably would have thrown in a bid.

 

Hey Mac, Dale Hays here in Columbus . . . how the heck have you been? Did you ever get your 39 on the road? Best of Holidays to you!

 

sounds like your own Kris Kringle present. Worth a punt really even if only for the flywheel. Hopefully the news is good.

 

Subscribed. Will be looking for the update.

 

From the looks of it, it has probably been standing on end in the corner of the shop for a while unless he just pulled it out of a block. I'd say you did pretty well on the flywheel alone if the crank doesn't turn out to be what you think it is. But a flathead crank is a flathead crank and someone will be looking for it if you decide you don't want it.

 

Dale,I'll pay for yours, if you pay for mine!

Looks like you did fine on the flywheel alone, though.

 

Hi Dale,

I was "watching" the Weber flywheel / crankshaft on E also. I was tempted but I hate to pay shipping costs.

Last month I won the bid on a 59a stock engine. Talked with the seller and explained I couldn't pick it up til after Thanksgiving. I called him the following Monday and said I could be there on Thursday. I live in Long Beach, the engine was a half-hour northeast of Sacramento toward Reno, about an 8 hour drive each way.

He calls me Wednesday night and asks if I would mind bringing down another 59a he just sold on E and the buyer lived in Long Beach also. I called the buyer and he agreed to share the cost of fuel. Left early Thursday morning, got home around 12:30 am the next day. What things we will do for Flathead parts!

Offy 220

 

"If you're ever wondering in the future if a 49-53 crank is the Merc variety, get the measurement across the flat sides of the second crank throw...the Ford crank is approx 5-3/4" across and the Merc crank is approx 6.0" across."

This is really good to know. 'Cause you sure couldn't perform the other method of measuring with wooden V-cut saddles at a swap meet.

 

Now that's just beauty right there!

 

OFFY220 - I'd have loved to see the look on other drivers' faces as you rolled down the road with that load of flatware in the back.

dj

 

Propwash and Sanfordsson,

My 59a block was needing sleeves [bored to 3 7/16"], so I had been looking for a usable block. Hard to believe that there are still fairly stock engines out there.

I did get some "thumbs up" traveling home. When I stopped to get fuel, one guy asked does the engine have a "valve covers"? I just shook my head.

[Dale, I didn't want to steal your thread - its just another E bay story]

Offy 220

 

regarding laying down a crank. I was at an engine builders shop recently and asked just that. He said you can stand em or lay em. He said if a guy won a race with a bannana on his grille EVERYONE would put on on their grille. Same with laying vs standing a crank. He said if a crank warps from laying it then you don't want it in the first place.

 

There are more damn myths out there that an average guy can listen to! I started working on flatheads when I was 15 - it was ALL I thought about outside of school/work . . . and I was in HotRod Mecca (Los Angeles). It didn't take long to realize that some/much of what you hear is not the truth and even some of the guys you would consider masters . . . they did shit back in the day, that they have no idea as to why! You have to question, apply your knowledge, keep looking beyond what is told/represented . . . there is ALWAYS more to know than is known or repeated as "truth".

Example: I decided I wanted to design a roller cam for a flathead -- spent a lot of time at Isky's in Gardena. Ed and John told me not to waste my time, Ed said "roller cams don't work in flatheads" -- end of story.

BUT, I had a neighbor who built Harley KR race Flatheads . . . every damn one of them had a roller cam. So something didn't jive with me. So I started mapping cams on a lathe with a degree wheel and a dial indicator (Dad have machine tools) - wanted to 'graph the profiles' so I could see what they did. Had all my neighbor's KR cams to compare to flat tappet flathead cams - like the Isky 404A, Potvin 425, etc.

After a bunch of work/graphing - decided I now knew WHY Isky believed they wouldn't run . . . showed my graphs to him. He says "Dale, where did you get those graphs?" - I told him "I made them because it is the only way I can compare two cams and understand what they're doing" . . . Ed says, "Well, don't show them to anybody - that is how we design cams!".

Then I show/explain my graphs and show him WHY I believe the myth isn't true - it is a simple thing . . . he looks at all my graphs and says "I believe you have figured it out" . . . writes on my graph paper the summary of his/my calculations and hands them back.

Bottom line -- if I didn't question the wisdom . . . even Ed Iskendarian's, I would not have learned a damn thing. Even more - Ed and I BOTH learned something that day . . . because he was willing to share and I was just a 20 year old kid who didn't know that I couldn't do it and believed I needed to know WHY. Probably exactly the same as Ed Isky was when he met Winfield . . .

That is one reason I loved going to see Ed Isky and John Athan - as wise and experienced as they are, they are still willing to imagineer on the damn flathead! Same with Joe Reath, Joe Hunt, etc.. - I'm a blessed bastard to say the least!

Maybe I'll scan one of those graphs with Ed's chicken scratches . . . what we learned that day, holds true today. On another day, I'll tell the story of how I decided to make some flathead roller cams -- Ed didn't know what he got himself into Maybe the FlatCad will benefit from some of this work

 

Great story Dale. Goes back to the question I asked about 21A connecting rods VS 91A rods for off-set ground 4 1/8" Merc crank. Sounds like another myth.

Since you mentioned Ed Winfield - I was researching camshaft profiles for an Offenhauser 220 engine I was putting together for the street. Ed ground basically all the camshafts for Offenhauser - most popular was #4 and #131 / #137 grinds. I wish I had the opportunity to meet individuals like him and find out what he would recommend. I would agree there is a lot of myths out there - what to use and what not to use / what works better / etc. Thanks for your research.

Offy 220

 

Did you find anybody to grind the Offy cams for yah? If not, Pete1 might be able to help you - has a wealth of knowledge.

 

Dale,

We ended up using #4 intake and #4 exhaust camshafts. My dad and I went out to see Dick Jones who used to run the Champion Spark Plug dyno in West Long Beach, right off the LB freeway near Anaheim St. He did testing for Offenhauser when they started developing the Blown 180 cubic inch engines for the Speedway. He suggested using those camshafts. Most of the guys who were around back then are not here today. I am grateful I have met some of the guys you have talked about who influenced you.

Offy cam blanks are hard to come by, I have never seen one. The cams ride directing on top of the valve and spring on a "cup". Cups have a small radius, somewhat like a roller lifter, and a small guide pin to keep it from rotating. The camshafts are also hollow with pressure oiling since they ride directly on the cam boxes [no insert bearings] and lubricate the overhead.

Keep up the good work on the flatcad, interesting to say the least.

Offy 220

 

Okay: So the big crankshaft box arrived via UPS. The 90 lb monster was lugged home -- then the Christmas gambling caper for a Merc Crank on eBay can finally be solved.

I'd asked the seller all kinds of questions - trying to decide if it was a Merc crank or not (because if it was just a Ford crank, wasn't worth shipping it for $85). Anyway, had him measure the first big counter-weight of the crank - came back with about 6.125" -- that told me it must be a Merc crank, so go ahead and ship it.

Opened the box and here is what I had:



I won the big gamble! It is a Merc crank that has already been stroked another 1/8" - uses the 91A/21A rods and has a 4 1/8" stroke. I measured the journals and the rods are STD, the mains are .010.

I've bought a lot of Merc cranks over the last 35 years, this has to be the best one yet (given the price). It costs a couple hundred to have a 4" Merc crank stroked to 4 1/8" -- and a good Merc crank tends to run about $300 - $400 these days.

I paid $50 for it and the Weber aluminum flywheel (which I'll clean up and sell).

Think I'll keep this crank for one of my hotrod projects . . .

Life is good - sometimes gambling pays off . . .

 

great score.....i have 2 supposedly merc cranks out in the shed now and haven't checked them out yet. one has the smaller diameter cleanout with the plug having a screwdriver type head. it came out of a 50 merc that came from british columbia. the other came out of an old motor i salvaged that had laid under a tree at a guys house for 35 years and he said it came out of a 37 ford. hoping they are good.

 

Just check the width of the first BIG counterweight back from the snout - it is the 2nd one. If it is over 6", it should be a Merc crank.

 

Dale,

Great score! Congrats and please keep us posted on an engine build with that 4 1/8" stroked Merc crank. I am using a similar set up - where is a good source for std. floating rod bearings? What's your plans with the flywheel?

Offy 220