GASSER MUST HAVES and cant haves?

I like how you think!

 

Only update is the purchase of a P-AYR mock small block so I can get a feeling for fit. May buy headers soon. I dont plan to build it this winter as I have too many projects 90% complete that need attention. The mockup will keep my head in it w/o moving it to the garage.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Moon Rocket
Unfortunately I don't believe anyone could ever get even one of the current groups or associations to buy into the #/ci rules. If they did, they would be risking getting their butts kicked by some yahoo with a small time budget, 331 small block. You think they are going to stand for that? Not.
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"How is that any different then back in the day? My car started out as a Big Block car and went to a 331" small block and was more consistent and set records that way."

It's exactly like is was back in the day. My point is, there is not one gasser group or association currently running under those guides. And I don't believe you will see any current group or association adopting them.

I may be wrong, I actually hope I am. Hell, I was suggesting going back to weight /cubic inch ratio rules 40 pages ago.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Moon Rocket
"I wouldn't even know how you could "adjust" at the big end"

What I was thinking is that if left lane has a 10 sec index and the right lane has a 12 sec index, left lane runs an actual 9.98, right lane runs and actual 11.95. The left lane crossed the finish beam 1.93 sec first. After both cars cross the finish beam, softwear calculated the index and the right lane win light comes on winning by .03 sec.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>"Bad example since both of your hypothetical racers broke out, and since the left lane broke out by less, he would have won. I Guinness if you really understood drag racing you would have known that."

Good catch, you are correct! I should have used 10:03 and 12:05 as the actual times run. I apologize for the error. But seems most realized what I was suggesting, even if it was a poor idea.

I agree that heads up, weight to cubic inch makes much better logic.

 

Addressing only the weight per pound to cubic inch rules, they changed a lot over the years;
In the beginning, there were five classes. Supercharger moved you up one class
A/G 0-8.99 lbs. per cu. In.
B/G 9.00-10.99
C/G 11.00-12.99
D/G 13.00-13.99
E/G 14.00 or more
1960 was the first year of the 10% set back rule. Prior to that the engine had to be in the stock location.
Minimum of 4.00 lbs per inch for A/G replaced the 0.00 lb. previous minimum.
Wheel base increased from 86&#8221; to 92&#8221; effectively outlawing the Anglia&#8217;s and Austins.
1962 they raised the minimum to 5.00 punds and then 6.00 in 1963
&#8217;63 also allowed Anglia&#8217;s to compete as unblown Small Blocks even though the wheelbase was under the rules.
In &#8216;64 the weight changes again, and there were separate Supercharged classes
A/GS 6.00-8.99
B/GS 9.00-12.59
C/GS 12.60 or more
NON Supercharged
A/G 5.0-8.99
B/G 9.0-10.49
C/G 10.5-11.49
D/G 11.5-12.99
E/G 13.00-14.59
F/G 14.60 or more
G/G 5.0-10.99
H/G 11-00 or more
G/Gas and H/Gas were for non blown pre 1960 flatheads, in line six and straight 8&#8217;s with stock cylinder heads and pre 1960 unblown 4 cyclinders.
For 1966 we changed again
A/GS 6.00-8.99
B/GS 9.00-11.99
C/GS 13.00 or more
A/G 5.0-6.99
B/G 7.0-8.99
C/G 9.00-10.99
D/G 11.0-12.99
E/G unchanged
F/G 14.60 unchanged
G/G unchanged
H/G unchanged
In 1967 some new ones again
Blown was known as AA/G 5.00-7.99
BB/G 8.00-10.99
CC/G 11.00 or more
The G and H rules now said Non Supercharged fathead V-8m in line six, opposed six (the Corvair rule) and straight eight with any type head.
Also Anglia&#8217;s could now run Big Block but still Not Supercharged, 67 was also the year the first &#8220;Modern&#8221; (i.e. Mustang&#8217;s) started to show up.
In 1968 the blown class designation went back to A/GS instead of AA/G for each class. The biggest change for 68 though was the frame rule. For the Supercharged classes, plus A and B/Gas and ALL unibody cars regardless of class, could now run with a rectangular or square tube frame with a minimum of .12&#8221; wall 2&#8221;x3&#8221; sizing. Prior to this the rules called out for Stock automobile type frame&#8217;
A/G 5.0-6.49
B/G 6.50- 7.99
C/G 8.00-9.49
D/G 9.50-10.99
E/G 11.00-12.49
F/G 12.50-13.99
G/G 14.00 or more (no longer the flathead class
H/G 6.00-8.99
I/G 9.00-11.99
J/G 12.00 or more
K/G 10.00 or more
H. I. and J were th new Flathead, straight six etc classes. They also added opposed 4 cylinder with any cylinder head to these classes. This was a palce for VW&#8217;s and Fiat&#8217;s to run.
K/G was for American built non supercharged flathead V8&#8217;s, in line fours, sixes and eights with production heads in American Bodies only

1969 AA/GS was left alone, but BB/GS was now 8.00-9.99 and CC/GS was 10.00 or more.
A/G through E/G was unchanged, F/G was now 12.50 or more, G/G went back to Flathead and K/G was dropped.
G/G was 6.00-7.99,
H/G was 8.00-10.99
I/Gas was 11.00 or more
J/Gas was 10.00 or more (the old K/Gas rules)
The other big thing is the wheelbase rule was dropped from 92&#8221; to 90&#8221; so Anglia&#8217;s could finally run BLOWN!

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Moon Rocket
I got to ask, why did they build the biggest spectator seating on the small end of every drag strip I have ever been to, especially if most of the fans set on the big end as suggested?
My primes is that the majority of spectators watch the starting line and rely on the boards to tell who won.
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"because we love to see cars launch, and you can't see that from the finish line, BUT you can still see who won, even when it's close from the starting line."

Hell, not with these old eyes I can't!

 

Moon you must have missed post #1332 where I quoted Daves post in saying that we have considered weight to ci in the future if things get out of hand and some cars run away with the show. Right now we don't need to change a thing because all of our cars are running close enough to keep everybody happy and put on a good show.

I look forward to it when the time comes I'm going to build a screaming 287 sbc and turn the stem winding s!!! out of it.

 

Why does this guy keep quoting himself?There's a box there like there should be a photo,but there's not.....


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Good deal, yes I have noticed how closely matched your member's cars are. Makes for great racing!

I'm sure your looking forward to the day the fields are large enough and enough of the little motor guys with fat cars want to get involved so there will be a need for at least two different classes.

Do you know the weight of your car or the typical car in your group currently? And what is the smallest cubic inch motor currently running in the group?

I'm thinking a roller SBC 406 with a good set of over the counter heads, single 4 barrel and a slick 4 speed in the lightest body the rules would allow would make for a low budget contender.

 

The Panneton, Jones & Christensen '56, originally ran a stock bore/stroke 327 with '63-'65 Rochester Injection in C/Gas which was good for 12 teens/twenties @ 112 mph. The B/Gas engine was a stock bore (4.000) 327 block, with a 4.00 stroke crank by C&T. They started with a 289 Studebaker crank (3.625) stroke, and welded/stroked it to 4.000. the Stude crank is a center thrust, but the rear main seal lip looks like a mineature small block chevy thrust, they welded that up while they were welding the throws, and machined a small block thrust out of it. Rods were '56 Buick Nailhead that are 5.950ish stock length. C&T ground/polished, the beams (also removing the oiling hump) bushed the small ends for .927 chevy pins, and converted the big end to allen head cap screws (instead of bolt & Nut) this also helped with rod to cam clearance (Stock Stude journal dia's are 2.000, same as 265/283 & small journal 327 chevy. Forged True flat top 2 ring pistons were good for 12.5:1 compression (58cc 461X heads, ported by dad) with nylon pin buttons to hold everything together. 340 Degree (advertised duration) x .500 lift Sig Erson flat tappet with pined studs and stock rockers/pushrods. Corvette 6qt. pan/pump/pickup, stock timing chain/gear set up, and a set of Pete Jackson injectors on methanol (sorry Moon Rocket, we cheated on the fuel back then) and a set of "big tube" 1 3/4 primary headers also built by dad. Rex Carson had a 400HP Clayton chassis dyno, and at 5000 rpm the new 400 incher "ran off with the dyno" so probably 500-550HP at the crank. This car still had a glove box door, so when you were "power tuning" it, you just opened the glove box, and gave the dizzy a twist until she pinged/rattled, then backed it of a hair, didn't have a timing light back then. This motor used the then new, mag pulse, tach drive, "Corvette" dizzy. This combo was good for 11.40's @ 123 on the first pass, and ultimately ran 10.90's @ 127, with a 2.20 low, close ratio Muncie, 4.10 gears and pie crust slicks with 10psi. The '56 always ran stock front suspension with the ball joint spacers & raised upper control arm attachment points at the frame. Chrysler Super Stock springs & Clamps out back with no traction/ladder bars. Unfortunately (for us) Fred Texierra's injected 426 Hemi/clutch flight Willys was running mid-low 10's in the 130+ range by now. The '56 was taken apart after the '67 or '68 season for a staight axle/square tube front stub which was completed by a guy name John Ward and also used a an early Triumph rack & pinion. The three piece glass nose was ditched for a one piece tilt version, and the entire floor was cut out to be replace with aluminum. During this transition, Chris Christensen sold the old mans small block to help buy a new 425HP 427, which really pissed dad of, since Chris didn't ask if he could, and dad didn't like the idea of putting the car on an even stricter weight diet, only to add 200+ lbs back to the nose. The Muncie was ditched for a new B&M Clutchflight, but before the '56 was completed, a brand new wrecked '68 Camaro was found, and sent off to Richard Ruth's Competition Engineering for the full chassis treatment (aka Two Lane Black Top). This car was finished in 69ish, called "The Fat Rat" and ran 9.80's @ 135. unfortunately all the "gassers" were become tube chassis stretch nosed "injected funny cars" that ran in the 9.30-9.50 range, and the new Fat Rat was antiquated almost over night.

 

PS. I have seen several early articles on the Kohler Bros. Anglia when it was an A/Gas car without the blower, and they always refer to it having a 400-415" Small block chevy, so I'm pretty sure it was the same C&T stroker bottom end assembly.

 

The lightest car that we have is Donovan Stott's anglia it's 2300 lbs with driver and has a 388 sbc. That's right around 6 lbs per ci.

 

The text in the box is not a quote.

The text between the "quotation marks" is the quote.

The text below the "quotation marks" is my new text.

But to answer your question, I just like to hear myself talk!

 

Holy shit.Your Dad didn't screw around,did he...?!?!?
That's makin' the most of what was available to work with,and makin' it haul the mail,too....!!!!
As for the Hemi Willys:There's always somebody with a bigger checkbook out there,isn't there...?
Sometimes digging deep into the rule books for little gray areas like Don's plate trunk floor,and that welded stroker combo your Dad came up with are the best way combat big bucks...
Thanks for the info,that is really cool stuff!

Scott


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And that's the killer in any weight/cu. in. class. Just ask the guys that are class racing in NHRA.




"Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

 

Yup.Cubic dollars are tough to compete against.


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Make-um run gas! The cost of building a competitive engine will come down over night.

 

The money to build a gas burning engine and an alky burner are about the same. And the alky engine is cheaper and easier to run.
But my next engine will be a gas burner. Now I just gotta find somewhere to buy 110+ octane PUMP gas (It's in the rules ).

 

Quain, is his engine anything exotic or is there anything about it that would bust the bank? How much HP would you say he is making? Do you know what compression ratio he is running?

 

"The money to build a gas burning engine and an alky burner are about the same."


This may be a good opportunity for a learning moment for me.

From my layman's prospective, I would think that a alky engine could be built to run a lot higher compression than a gas engine. If this is true, I then would believe that the parts to handle the higher compression would be much more expensive than those required to handle the lower compression of a comparable gas engine.

Am I barking up an empty tree?

 

Have we addressed cross ram intake manifolds?
I'm a fan..............

 

No you can build a gas burning engine that runs approximately the same compression as an alky engine (12:1 +), but you have to run it on racing gas which is over $10.00/gal.

Before you say, build them to run on pump gas (which was in the rules for Gas Coupes/Sedans) ask any of the guys that race any of the gasser associations what kind of gas they run. I'll bet VERY few run pump gas.

As far as the crossrams go, I seem to remember seeing a few on big block Mopar wedges which could have happened in the mid sixties (maybe a little earlier, Mopars are a little foggy for me). But if you were bucks down and didn't run injectors, you probably ran a factory style 2X4 intake. The side by side crossrams probably were available in the mid sixties. The staggered became popular with the factory Z-28 intake which was available in 1967 (I think). This was about the same time the regular tunnel rams became popular too.

 

Hi Dave.
I like your style.Those intakes look really great,but some don't run as well as others.
The ones you want to look for have the two halves or plenums joined in some way,such as the Mickey Thompson intakes do.
These seem to provide a stronger vacuum signal to the carburetors,allowing them to operate more smoothly,and without stumbling.
The Edelbrock does not use this feature,and I have heard of guys having quite a bit of difficulty to get it to run well.
I do not have any personal experience with the Offy crossrams.
For carburetion,on a smaller ci motor (up to 300ci hot,or 350ci ish mild) I would suggest going with 390cfm carbs,and for hitter street motors I would suggest 450 cfm mechanical secondary carbs.I would save the 600 cfm carbs for VERY hot small blocks,or big block motors with lots of inches to feed.
I would also let the cam companies know what intake you were planning on running,and let them suggest a specific grind,or maybe even a custom grind.They will also be able to help with carb advice.

Scott


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Will they allow E85? Comparatble to regular unleaded price wise, and 95-105 octane
depending on who your taking to. We've run 14.5:1 on the stuff with thermal barrier coatings on the tops of the pistons. Best one to date is a 565" rat that made 903HP.

 

Ross and his brother ran a cross ram on this 57 Corvette powered by a 68 Z28 motor.

 

cool to look at, but not that great for making power. The very first Edelbrock TR-1 tunnel ram which is crude by todays standards, and was a somewhat copy cat of a '63-'65 Rochester Fuel Injection manifold was 10+ hp better than the Ram Log at 3000 rpm, and 63HP! better at 6500. This was on Edlebrocks very own dyno, with their very own 331" SB Modified Production engine.

 

I was talking to Quain awhile back and we were shaking our heads that back in the day, anyone trying to compete against Willys, Anglias, and Austins, in a Tri-5 chevy, was sure fighting an up hill battle. The little cars were 2000-2300 lbs (and maybe a few lighter than that) and it takes alot of determination & $'s to get a Tri-5 to 2800-3000.

 

Not quoting anyone in particular but I wanted to bring up
pump gas vs race gas.

Lets not forget, there were only 2 fuels in the early 60's. Regular & Ethel. Ethel was 98-99 octane so many racers didn't need to buy "race" gas- like today. Lets not forget about Sunoco at the pump either.

Here's a little deal I saved a few years ago.

 

Your Dad definitely wasn't afraid of a fight when he built the car back in the day,was he..?
It says a lot about someone's character when they choose to take the route that they know is going to be harder work...


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