Good compression but burning water? 60 Lincoln 430 - update: All ripped apart

I had a BBC that was weeping water from the valve guides. They heads and just been done by a local speed shop. However, they did fix it at no charge.

 

Sure looks like a lot of carbon in the cylinders if it was burning coolant. I wonder if it has a crack inside an exhaust port ?

 

You can have water leaks with little/no apparent compression loss. I had a warped head that was seeping water, but compression was virtually the same as all other cylinders.

Another theory is a crack in an exhaust or intake runner. That could leak without any compression loss.

Now that you've taken it apart, I'd say reassemble with new gaskets and run it. If it still leaks, then have the cooling system pressure tested.

 

I just re-read this thread.

I am a dumb fuck.

I forgot to mention that combustion gasses were getting into the cooling system.

 

Mike,

Thanks... Good stuff to look for. I keep thinking maybe I should disassemble the head and get the magnifying glass out and look closely for leaks, maybe even the torch if need be?

 

Did you use the block leak dye test or just watch bubbles in the radiator?

 

Leak dye block tester. I didn't specifically see bubbles per se, but I did see churning at the filler neck and what looked like some cavitation there.

The block thermostats aren't in the block, which is good and water diverters are also intact.

What else can I think of...... It's been using more and more water and it isn't leaking, it actually holds pressure well. Last time I actually measured water use age was on a drive to a cruise, 35 miles each way. After that round trip it took at least a half gallon.

 

I would say that you caught this very soon after it started. The two spark plugs in the center are whiter than the end ones. Milling the heads just enough to clean them will help, then clean-clean-clean. Run a thread chaser in the head bolt holes, not a tap. A tap can take out metal, you don't want that. Run the bolts across a wire wheel. Use 50/50 motor oil and STP as assembly lube on the threads and under the bolt heads. Torque to 45, then 60, then 75, then tighten them up, all in the proper pattern. Then torque them again. I think you have saved a good motor, it should last many more years. Ya done good so far.

 

Don,

Thanks! You made my day!

This has come on pretty recently mileage wise.

By the way... This car came from your neck of the woods... West Frankfort. I got it from the estate of a guy named Dino Angeli who got it from Kenneth Gray the congressman.

 

Maybe you did catch it soon. Did any of the head bolt seem looser than others like around the cylinder with the stain?

 

Not really... maybe a little but nothing too noticeable. What surprised me was how little torque it took to remove the head bolts that were under the valve cover. A couple of the ones outside the valve cover, the exposed ones, took a LOT of torque to remove.

 

Well I guess you caught it soon enuff. If the head bolt holes are blind holes make sure that there isn't a bunch of crap in the bottom of them that would let the bolts bottom out before clamping the heads down.

 

I don't know anything about old Lincoln motors ... so for what it is worth.

I helped a friend fix an elusive water losing problem similar to yours in a 326/350/389 (can't remember the exact cubic inches) Pontiac motor.

The water pump had developed a pin hole on the back side where it mounted to the block. Water was entering the engine into the camshaft area where the pump covered an open area in the front of the block. A new water pump fixed it.

 

A half gallon for a 70 mile ride isn't really that much to lose, especially if it may have belched out from the overflow tube. How low was coolant level in the radiator? These systems don't like to be overfilled and will puke until the coolant level is just right. You might have weak pressure cap that is letting it out.

An interior coolant leak will usually show itself in steamy exhaust with a sweet coolant smell, or by mixing coolant with the oil and causing steamy blowby and milkshake oil. If you drain your oil, look carefully at what comes out first. If it's water, you're in trouble. If the oil is grey and creamy, you're in trouble. If none of these things show up. maybe you're barking up the wrong tree.

Oh, if the guy driving behind you turns on his windshield wipers on a clear day, then you know you got a leak.

Water churning at the neck isn't the best indicator. Without thermostats, the system is gonna flow quickly.

Exhaust passage leaks can show themselves by causing overheating as the hot gasses leak into the cooling system, especially under loads like hillclimbing or high speed runs.

 

"it actually holds pressure well."

What pressure do you test with? Have you had the cap tested?

the reason I ask is my daughter's Honda a system held 5 minutes with no pressure drop at 10 psi, but the ancient radiator would squirt a fine stream at 16 psi.

Depending where the hose enters radiator relative to the cap when the t-stat is open I'd expect to see vigorous flow.

I'm still confused about the combustion gas in the coolant report. You did a chemical test of the air in the radiator tank for combustion gas, and got a color change?
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...ock-Test-Tools-Inc-/_/R-BK_7001006_0361115491

 

Oh I've been through radiator hell with this car. I pressurized it at 16psi and it held for the 30 minutes that I had it there. It's had 3 different radiator caps on it to check.

Oh the missing thermostats are the ones in the block, MELs originally had, through 64, three thermostats. The logic is to remove the block ones. I have a correct 180 degree main tstat in there.

Oh the blowby smells like burning coolant. A few of the head bolts had grey muddy oil on them and I've gotten some mayo under the oil cap.


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Dan,

Yup. I used the autozone kit with the fluid. It changed color to the bad color, blue or green I forget.


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Looks like you've already started tearing down the engine. But before you did, did you notice any fluid under the tail pipe after start up? Did you fill the radiator up and check to see if the fluid level had dropped any the next day? Are you going to pull the engine the rest of the way apart? My dad had something like this happen a few years ago in his race car and it turned out to be a "pin Hole" in the cylinder block. So if you do tear the engine the rest of the way down scrub the cylinders down and look for something that looks like a grain of pepper in the cylinder wall.

 

When did you forget to mention this?
Did you forget Before It was mentioned here or after it was mentioned here?

That's a classic blown head gasket

 

I thought I had posted it here that combustion gases were getting into the coolant.

The thing that gets me tho, and I've changed blown head gaskets many times before, is that there was, to my eyes, none of the typical signs inside the engine of a blown HG.

The ONLY explanation I can think of, and it strikes me as bullshit, is that maybe the carbon on those cylinders and heads has been there so damn long that the burned water just didn't have an effect on it?


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I think your avatar says it all you can point it at the car or the posts you don't like.

 

Maybe that came out wrong. I figured it had to be blown HG or Intake or cracked head. What surprised me was when I got it apart. I figured I'd see obvious signs of coolant being burned. But everything is covered in carbon? Seems odd to me that's all. Those yellow stains by the exhaust valves are a new one to me. I have no idea what that is.


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I think that's from the unleaded gas.

 

Ahhh thanks! I am going
To check the cylinders for pinholes as well


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Yeah, I think he should change it also...

 

If Johnny was working on his Lincoln, he WOULD be flipping it the bird. I've been following this thread to see what comes of it; I hope you track the culprit down and eliminate it.

 

I was not saying change it I love it.
Makes me take a look at myself.

 

Jeez,

I just always liked the picture!

Yes, this car is a royal pain in the ass to work on. Everything is very heavy, big and not that accessible. Plus on these Lincolns you have the fun of a front hinged hood. Need to change the PS pump? Hood off, radiator out. On top of that 58 and newer Lincolns seem to be designed by Rube Goldberg... Very complex, miles of wiring and vacuum lines, etc.

Ever see the AC system on one? Two heater cores and two AC evaporators. My heater cores started leaking and they're bypassed for now. Flat rate time to change one? Think its 7 hours!

At least it'll be easy to change out them motor mounts while I'm at it!

Plan this week is to get heads and intake to machine shop (and valley pan for a good cleaning). While they're there ill check the cylinders over real carefully, change engine mounts, vacuum lines, clean up engine compartment, etc.

Ill post what I find. This car just stumps me that's all... My 60 Vauxhall blew a head gasket. I had the head off that engine in just over an hour, saw a steamed clean cylinder and a bad gasket. Skimmed head, put it back together, all was well. I've yanked an FE, flathead and a Pontiac 370 apart among others before plus OT stuff.

Oh well, this should be fun

Again, thanks for the advice... Just wanted to ask the collective knowledge of the board in case I missed something obvious.

Bill

 

It's been quite a while sice I worked on my 58 430 MEL, but I believe some of the exhaust manifold bolts go into water jackets in the head, so using thread sealant when reassembling would be a good idea.

Another bit of info you might find of use some day is that the water pump bypass hose is 7/8", at least on the 58 MEL. I stood on a box, leaned down into that engine compartment and fought a 3/4" hose on when I first got my car. The next time I messed with it I went to the parts store and to my surprise I was able to buy some 7/8" Gates green stripe hose that actually fit the application properly.

Good Luck, Have Fun.

 

Hey, we had a '59 Vauxhall 50 years ago! The fact that you're keeping a '60 Lincoln and '60 Vauxhall on the road is awesome, even if it is a pita sometimes!