Might as well start off with some controversy. I have a SBC block that has the engine number partially removed by a die grinder. I have checked the casting numbers, dated and confirmed that it was cast in 1964. About 90% of the existing numbers on the front pad are ground off (I know "Welcome to Oakland"). My question is for the old Chevrolet mechanics out there, were the numbers ground off of old warranty blocks back in the day? This seems to me that someone is trying to hide a stolen block or make hard to trace it back to a Impala or Biscayne to use in the '65 basket Corvette Coupe that I bought from an estate. I do not want or need a compromised engine in my ride. Because the original engine is missing it will never be a "matching numbers survivor" and I don't care. I just want to put this old ride back on the streets again
Many warranty engines or replacement engines had no numbers or prefix-suffix markings on the pad, that was for vehicle id number. They were tagged elsewhere.
If you want something pretty close, I have a complete gennie '64 327, with the correct-code block for a Vette, sitting in the back of my 52 F1 in Napa. It was running in a rod, and pulled by the new owner for a crate engine- only thing that was removed was the carb, and all date codes match- even still has the plug wires on it. Number on the deck is still there, but it does code to a '64 Impala lol.. Get this orange lump outa my driveway before somebody sees it
I'd think that MeanGene427 just made you an offer you can't refuse. One thing though, is it obvious that someone took a grinder to the pad with the numbers stamped in it or could that pad have been machined down when the block was decked at some time. I've seen a few of them come out of the machine shop with the numbers machined off that way including one from a numbers matching car that the machinist screwed up when he didn't stop the cutter before it got to the pad. That one was with explicit instructions on the work order saying not to cut that pad when the block was decked. I've seen the numbers ground off on a lot of blocks that came from rebuilders though. At least the one a shop I worked in installing rebuilt engines got it's short blocks from.
Nothing in those numbers to worry about. I don't think they put serial numbers there till after that. I could be wrong on Corvette stuff.
If its apart, or going to be apart, take it in and zero deck it when you rebuild it, and clean up the mess, if it is a mess. Can only think of one reason a number would be ground off, although not many 327 cars have been targets of thieves for years.
Any number on that pad in 64 was NOT a VIN-serial etc. That number letter series only told the built plant and what the orignal spec was ,275HP-Vette-PG for example. Any id/serial #s on a engine would have been before the mid 50s generaly.
I've got a 355 sbc in the shop that came out of a drag car I bought. The numbers have been ground smooth and replaced with stamped in information like the cubic inches, the rod length, the amount of overbore, and the amount the crank was turned. I am guessing it was a crate performance reman at one time because it has World Product heads and some pretty good machining. So I don't think it is uncommon for engines to have the factory information removed and replaced or not. Don
1st, is there a number down on the oil filter ring OR in that general area? 2nd, I think that there is a place in Mena, Arkansas that will restamp it for you if you want to go this route? And I have no idea about the legality of doing this?? Or if they are still in business? I was stupid and lost my OEM 1967 SS Camaro's 350 block and thought hard about doing this. And I got to thinking that even a numbers correct restamped block wouldn't be my block so said ta hell with it and now I have BBC 496 engine in my car. pdq67
I've never understood the perceived importance of having the same block. On the ***embly line there's a few piles of blocks and a few piles of cars. Some guy grabs a block off the pile and hand stamps the number , next guy puts motor mount bolts in and apparently it's becomes something sacred ???? Wonder if those two guys ever said "hey watch this " or " are you crazy, you can't do that " I know it adds value and collectors dream about it, have devised ways to fake it, so their must be something to it for them - I just don't value it much
After about 1967 GM put the actual vin number on the block. That is what the Corvette guys want, muscle car guys too.
Finish grinding it off, go get yourself a set of number stamps, and VIOLA: you have yourself a highly coveted DZ302! I've seen this happen a few times. A guy I know was recently doing up a "low mile numbers matching" LS6 Chevelle. He had the motor out, and had us come over to take a look at it. The VIN didn't match the car, and it was obviously a later block. The pad on the front p***enger side had the tell tale CRZ on it, but, something was fishy and the font of the CRZ was different than what I had seen. I wrote down the numbers behind the driver's side head, and they came back to a late 70s truck motor. I tried to tell him that the VIN needed to match the car its out of in order to be "numbers matching", but, the new round of muscle car people are a special group. He put it back together, and ran it too hard for a few weeks. I haven't seen the car on the street since.
Some GM cars made it out the plant with "wrong" motors etc. They didnt stop production to keep numbers matching, esecially if a strike or materials supply line problem occured. Dont know about Corvettes, but numbers matching is overrated IMHO. Hot rod that vette and run it. Cool cars.
I agree with you on the numbers matching thing. I have had that discussion with muscle car friends. I would rather have the car with original paint and wrong motor than original motor and every body panel changed. They look at me like I am strange! Back to the OP. Build it and run it.
When you ask if the numbers were ground off warranty blocks, are you referring to blocks being taken out of service or the replacement blocks? IF you are referring to blocks warrantied for a engine failure, the official policy was to return the block if there was a core charge on it or it requested for ****ysis. The other part of the official policy then and now is to make it unusable before disposal. I once had a zone rep watch me take a sledge hammer to a 400 SBC with 10K on it that had a non verifiable oil consumption problem. He knew how to push the ****ons of customer service and they decided to shut him up. On service blocks they could either be stamped with a plant identifier or blank. No rhyme or reason behind it. The dealership I worked at was part of the Penske Corporation and we would order Chevrolet parts for Penske Racing. We could order multiple engine blocks and some would be numbered, some not. So for your answer, I have never seen a block with the numbers partially ground off by GM either in production, a parts plant or in the field. It was done sometime after for who knows why?
On the numbers matching scenario: in the early 1970's Pontiac Motor Division shared corporate warehousing under the General Motors Parts Division banner. Including Plant 75 which was Pontiac Motor Division's Factory Warehouse. But Plant 75 was a unique one as it was run semi-independent of the corporate ones. They had "clearance specials" such as AM-FM stereo radios for IIRC 25 bucks for past model year cars. One thing we used to do at one dealership was to buy truckload engines at the end of production years. For example we bought complete 455 Pontiac engines including carburetors air cleaners starters and such for $200.00 each. And in some cases the zone reps would allow these to be used for warranty repairs instead of rebuilding a failed engine. We bought complete new Muncie four speed transmissions for a hundred dollars. But that was a lot of money back then, I remember buying used ones for fifty to seventy five dollars in that era of the late 60's to early 70's. Replacement engines and transmissons were used a lot from my memory due to the spectacular ways that some met their end thereby rendering the blocks and transmission cases unsuitable for other uses than doorstops. That was not that uncommon.........I used the front corner of a 454 block containing part of the cylinder wall for just that purpose. That was previously part of a new pickup truck one of our porters blew up while driving it for a dealer trade. My dealer was not as impressed of it as I was though.....
nothing illegal about it on a motor.It didn't have a VIN number or serial number stamped on it. The only time a numbers matching block matters is when you sell it.If you want to get top dollar for it...it needs to be numbers matching.If you don't care about the value...don't worry about it.
The numbers that were ground off your block are probably a partial VIN. They are the way you can tell if a car is a "numbers matching" car (only one engine is numbers matching for a particular car). They are also the way LEO's can tie an engine to a stolen vehicle. I had a friend that bought an engine out of a wrecking yard and put it in his pickup. The engine turned out to be stolen and he had to buy it again from an insurance company.
The #'s matched the vin # in 1964. My 64 Vette has them as I checked when I bought the car. I have a book somewhere that says when [early 60's, I think] that started. I'll look it up when I find the book.
VIN didn't start until 68. Before that there was just a partial serial number.Lots of blocks have those numbers ground off that were decked during a rebuild. Its not a big deal.
So cars didn't have VINs before 68, you can't identify what car the engine came out of? Got it off the internet, must be true. "History of the VIN Detroit automobile manufacturers began stamping and casting identifying numbers on cars and their parts in the mid 1950's . The primary purpose of this vehicle identification number (VIN) was to give an accurate description of the vehicle when m*** production numbers were starting to scale in very significant numbers. The early VINs came in a range of variations depending on the individual manufacturer at that time. In the early 1980's the U.S. National highway Traffic Safety Administration (USDOT) required that all road vehicles must contain a 17 character VIN. This established the standard fixed VIN system which major vehicle manufacturers use currently. The result was a unique "DNA" style number for each individual vehicle rolled off the ***embly line. The Vehicle Identification Number was originally described in ISO Standard 3779 in February 1977 and last revised in 1983. The ISO-VIN was designed to identify motor vehicles, trailers, motorcycles and mopeds and consists of several parts described below."
I have a " '64 GM 327 Fitted crate block" with no numbers from factory, Standard bore, pistons & rings, stamp what ever you like or not! $1200 + shipping
uh-huh. Damaged numbers on the pad--not a big deal? Tell that to an investigating officer from the auto theft division. See where that gets ya Been there, done that. I almost lost a truck(62 Chevy with a 69 427) because the deck had been punched(engine was a theft recovery from years past) Got threatened and called a bunch of names by the authorities, who eventually used acid to raise the numbers enough to satisfy them it wasn't stolen. A 64 block carries a partial serial number(some people call that a VIN--nomenclature misapplication) that does indeed match the serial number plate of the car it was installed in. Deck it if you're gonna use it, but don't leave it defaced.
Thanks for all the information everyone! MeanGene427, I'm on it. I will PM you. Earl Shibe, that is what I do not want to happen! I am not ready for a long conversation with Law Enforcement on the origins of that engine. I went to the monthly Union meeting last night and talked to the President who was a Chevrolet mechanic during those years. He said that all they did if a engine block was removed and replaced for whatever reason was to record the old numbers and new numbers (if there were any) on the Repair Order. They never altered or destroyed any block numbers. That brings me to the idea that this engine block is compromised in some way. Not wanting to have any Department of Motor Vehicles (California DMV) h***les or having the Coupe impounded I cannot use it. It has been removed in a way that it cannot be "fixed" by decking the block (see attached). No numbers around the oil filter area. I do not care about the historical significance of the engine. I just want to drive this old Coupe. I have tried to attach some photos of the damage to the engine. I will read this board to see if I can find out how. I will check back later. Mark.
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