Technical Guess what, it wasn't all vapor lock...

Some of y'all may have followed my trials and tribulations with fixing vapor lock. I Googled and studied this forum and some others getting to the bottom of a no hot start problem. I went through the whole scenario of insulating the fuel line added return line back to the tank added electric fuel pump and thought I had it all worked out. Everything seemed fine for a while until the other day after filling up at a gas station the damn thing wouldn't start again. When I finally got it started I went to AutoZone and got a spark tester from them with an adjustable probe made by OEM. So after getting home on this 101-degree day I pushed her pretty hard up and down some hills and air conditioning running and all Let It idle and get real warm even fairly hot. Shut it down and went and played a round of War Thunder came back came in about 15 minutes and she wouldn't start just as I expected so I plugged in the spark tester which previously showed the big huge blue Spark at about a 3/4 inch space and guess what. Nothing. 0 spark even with about 1/4 inch spacing on the tester. I just did a search here about HEI no hot Spark and I found one posting that a guy put on here that said that he had exactly the same thing happened. The coil is a MSD with a stock module.

So as soon as I can scrape together another hundred bucks to drop into this damn thing I'll be getting that MSD module with a rev limiter. Hopefully their module doesn't flake out at high temperatures.

That's all for today.

 

HEI. 'High Energy Ignition'. Invested some 'high energy' into that ignition I had on my truck awhile back.
Only time I had to call the tow truck for my F100 in 36 years.
Pulled it out of there and gave it a 'High Energy Hurl' onto Craigs List.
Delco Dual point lives there once again, cranks 1/4 crankshaft turn, starts and idles immediately.
I understand and respect electronics. Do the same thing with rattlesnakes. Avoid 'em both.

 

Mike I agree with you .I am sticking with my points in the 56 Chrysler.Bruce.

 

Electronic ignition systems are far more reliable than sporadically maintained points systems - except when they aren't. I'm so old school that if I can't see it physically, I don't understand it and can't diagnose it. It's a blind spot in my education process, I know.

 

I'm with the above guys, no electronics.

 

Had to deal with electronic ignition 35 years ago in my Cutlass. Hate them! Turned out for me that the wire under the dwell plate was broken from the heat. Some times it would make contact and other times it wouldn't. I will never have it again.

Glad that you got it figured out.

 

Points maintained are pretty damn reliable. And if there is a hiccup, pretty easy to diagnose.
My electronic prowess is limited to changing bulbs.

 

I rebuilt some 97's for a friend. The car never ran right. I kept going thru the carbs, even at runs. He put in a points dist and canned the MSD. Ran perfect afterwards

 

When points get out of adjustment or get dirty and leave you on the side of the road, you clean and adjust them usually by sight and be on your way. When electronics act up and leave you on the side of the road, as mine did, you stay on the side of the road.

 

The corn gas we have now doesn't help any ...

 

90% of fuel issues are electrically related.................and vice versa

 

If there's no spark you ain't going to light anything no matter what it's made from .

 

That's where a cheap spark tester comes in handy.

I had one of the early enduro motorcycles to come with electronic ignition. If I stopped somewhere and it sat for ten minutes, it wouldn't start. I assumed fuel but finally checked spark. No spark. Wait another ten minutes and it would be fine. I learned to either get back to it sooner or wait longer.

 

I have to agree. I have tried Pertronix and duraspark and they all fail. Except for the Pertronix in my avatar, I've gone back to points on everything and I carry a points distributor in the trunk of my avatar

 

Lovin me some points.
I have a friend who is a real good wrench. He's a die hard fuel infection hei guy.
We went to lunch in my slightly OT 3 door suburban.
He couldn't believe how quick it started and how smoothe it ran.
Same with the 61 Galaxie, 223-6.

 

Electronics don't like heat. Where you install the "black boxes" that goes with some ignition systems can be the diffrence between if they survive or not.

 

HEAT.
When I got tired of fixing the Hei dist in my Studebaker truck in far away parking lots every few years, I took mine out of the distributor and mounted it inside the passenger compartment then ran the dist wires to it.
The idea was to keep a spare in the glovebox, then I could quickly change a failed module without being noticed.
Well, after I made that change I havent replaced a module in over a dozen years so far, now that it is in a cool place.
If it ever does give up the ghost, I will simply unplug the old $15 module, and plug in the new one from the glove box. downtime- less than 10 min. It takes me longer than that to clean and re-set points.

P.S. - I haven't filed points, changed points, or adjusted points in my old old cars in at least a few decades, and I travel long long distances with old old engines.

Post Post Script - the thread title mentioned vapor lock. Where is the best place to post my sure cure, permanent cure, for vapor lock?
Right here, or a new thread?

why be ordinary?

 

I've had good luck with an MSD6A box, their coil and a points distributor on a couple projects but prefer points and a coil if that will fire the mix.

 

"Post Post Script - the thread title mentioned vapor lock. Where is the best place to post my sure cure, permanent cure, for vapor lock?
Right here, or a new thread?"

Hey, Dare, be my guest!

 

Here is mine :

https://49fordcoupe.smugmug.com/Fighting-Vapor-Lock/

And my full website :

https://49fordcoupe.smugmug.com

 

Electronic ignitions are like a light switch------either on or "off" and usually not in between.

 

oh.
ok.
then you've covered my method.
Mine was basically copying mid 80's AMC method of installing very close to the carburetor a fuel filter with a built in, small return line to keep the fuel moving slightly, so it doesn't just creep along collecting heat.
It looks like you covered that method.
That's the one that always works without fail for me.


why be ordinary?

 

You guys are so old fashioned
Just like me !

 

Exactly what I'm talking about. Moving electronics to a cooler place (or not putting a them right next to red hot engine to begin with) can make a huge diffrence. If possible, you want them in a place that gets some nice, cool air flow.

 

Hey 49ford coupe,
I just went to the first link above and read down to the bottom and saw this last post, "If this doesn't work, I may have a car for sale. That is a joke. SOOO , I got a Carter P4070 fuel pump. 4.5 amp. and also a Carter 1691002 check valve. This assembly will be installed after the primary filter that is about half way between the fuel tank and the engine on the outside of the frame rail on the passenger side. Fuel comes in from the left fitting, through the check valve, through the second fitting, and on to the mechanical fuel pump when the electric pump is not operating. A pushbutton switch on the dash turns on the pump, which pulls gas from the left fitting and then back to the fitting on the right, and the check valve closes, so full pressure pushes fresh, cool gas through the mechanical pump to the secondary filter and back to the fuel tank. Had to mount the pump back under the trunk next to the fuel tank, but it took 12 feet of 3/8" fuel line to divert the fuel to the pump. THIS WORKS LIKE A CHAMP!"
So I understand correctly, the mechanical pump handles the fuel chores until you get in a no hot start situation at which time you push the button to activate the Carter pump to get fuel going, start the car then let the button go. Is that right?

Thanks for writing up your results for all of us to learn.
NRM

 

You are welcome, and yes the button is just momentary, plus after the first time after that modification, a few weeks later I stopped in at the hardware store for about 15 minutes and guess what? that was the first time it wouldn't start after all those changes. And at that time while I was cranking the car the guy that was giving me a jump start cuz I ran the goddamn red top battery down said I smell gasoline. We both thought maybe I had flooded the car. That's when I decided that maybe I should add a pressure regulator because the data on the electric fuel pump said it was 7 lbs and my Edelbrock likes five-and-a-half as i understood so I thought there was a possibility I was blowing past the float valves. Another couple of weeks goes by and I didn't have occasion to have another hot start till a few days ago. Then up jumped the devil. That's when I turned my attention back to ignition. I fully expected with the new little spark tester that I would have a really weak spark. I was amazed that there was absolutely zero.

Never thought of mounting remotely but that's what I'm going to do. WHEW!

Kinda funny that vapor lock and ignition failure have exactly the same symptoms. Problem may have been ignition all along. Stay tuned. After I get my new MSD rev limiting HEAT module I will do a torture test without the electric fuel pump and will report back here. It's been 13 straight days of 99 to 101 here in Austin.

 

They absolutely do not have the same symptoms.

Car cranks but doesn't start -
Step 1- Check for spark - Yes or no.
If no - check ignition system.
If yes- add starting fluid thru carb while cranking. Does engine attempt to run ? Yes or no.
If yes, check fuel delivery system
If no, check compression, valve timing and ignition timing.

Trouble shooting 101-
3.5 mins flat to diagnose which system is faulty.

If the problem is intermittent then the testing needs to be done when the problem is present.

 

You mentioned having some MSD components in your ignition. I had a similar problem, no spark when hot. Ran fine for 10 years then developed problem, tried all the usual things, new fuel pump, new carb, replaced old Pertronics with new, still no spark when hot. Just by chance when changing Pertronics kit I noticed a small burn mark on the bottom of the MSD rotor. The little screw on top that holds the little brass tab had burned through on the bottom and would ground out on the advance weights. Replaced rotor with different type (not MSD), no more problems, even in PHX at 117 degrees. Just something else to look at. You never know

 

Miss Vicky, I said SYMPTOMS. As in, no start after sitting hot for 15 minutes or so. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

I know what you said, I quoted you.
"No start" is a CONDITION or state of being. The clue of "after sitting hot for 15 mins is "CONDITIONAL" or a prerequisite to entering the condition.

There are many many things or component failures that cause a change in condition of running fine into "no start" condition.


I hope you got the issue sorted and you drive the wheels off the thing. I'm sorry you went thru a tail chasing adventure- but these concepts and trouble shooting charts and diagnosis technology is very very old and in print a million times over. There's no need for hind sight or endless frustration chasing ghosts.