HEIDT's Mustang II subframe help...

Hey guys... I have the Heidts subframe, with coil overs and tubular control arms, and I have a problem... Fat Hack told me to post and let you guys have fun with it! Here's the dilly...

My lower A arms are bent... in 2 planes... If you look at it from the front, it is not a straight line, but a very subtle "V", bent right at the shock mount. If you look at it from the ball joint, the shock bolt is also bent into a subtle "V", and the bushing ends of the control arm are sloped toward the inside to match.

My questions are:
1: Why did they bend??? I DO NOT have coil bind, it DOES NOT bottom out...
2: Should I bend them back straight and weld in some braces, or replace them?
3: If I replace them, should I go through HEIDT's, or does someone else make a control arm that will fit their subframe?

Fat Hack said I'd get some interesting responses, so let's hear it!

 

Are you sure they aren't supposed to be like that? Suspension geometry is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned.

 

would it be possible to post pics just so we can see exactly what is going on under there?

 

Are these by chance stainless arms?

I have had a lot of problems with Heidt's products lately. I just shot a roll of film on a severly busted crossmember that was installed by a licenced Heidts dealer in the Chicago area. The truck has 27,000 miles on it. As soon as I have the pictures back I will scan and post them for all to see. I also have some recomendations for solutions to these probelms.

I had a set of Heidts steel tubular control arms on a 1950 Oldsmobile coupe that bent with less than 100 miles on them. After a "toe to toe" argument with Gary Heidts on the phone, I was told it was my fault. Every excuse in the book was given from the shocks were bottoming out to coil bind. My rebutal was it is expected that the suspention will bottom out every once in a while and the components should be able to withstand the impact. No dice. Well I cut them apart and found they used 1" X .110 SEAMED TUBING !!! No wonder they gave up so easy. I have my doubts if they would hold up on the front of a lightweight A over time.

I spoke with Frank Streff the other day about his SoCal push truck, he probably doesn't want me passing this on but His Walton Chassised F100 uses Heidts stainless arms. He said they bent up just like you described with very low miles on them. He has since "upgraded" to those***** ugly arms they offer and hasn't had any more problems. The best they could figure is that they use a low grade stainless like 304 to make it easier to polish.

I would contact Heidts for replacement arms. I would also demand they pay for everything including your labor. Take pictures and send them in to prove your point. I am sure you are going to get responses like, "you overloaded them," or "your shocks are bottoming out" or my personal favorite, "those parts are for show cars, you are not expected to drive those on the street." Yes I did get that response out of them concerning a Heidts Superide that would not track correctly.

You can call me at my shop if you want to discuss this further,

Steve Szymanski
Industrial Chassis Inc
602-278-6800

I should be there today from 9:00am to Noon MST

 

Over the past year or so there have been a number of negative posts about Heidt"s Mustang II kits and related parts. I'm planning to put an independent front end under my 48 F-1 with a 425 ci Caddy as I've had enough fun with a dropped straight axle. Has anyone had any experience with the Progressive Automotive stuff?

Any recommendations on road tested independent kits?

Thanks.

Bill

 

[ QUOTE ]
"those parts are for show cars, you are not expected to drive those on the street."

[/ QUOTE ]



They should put that***** in their ads for everyone to see.
"Our overpriced***** is for Posing use only.Please be careful pushing your car on and off the trailer."

In BIG letters,beside the Fish.

 

48 Bill....phone the number in El Polacko's post. Industrial Chassis builds REAL truck suspensions using real truck parts. NOT compact car stuff.

Bill

 

tubular A arms are for atv's...........[and posers.]

 

[ QUOTE ]

Fat Hack said I'd get some interesting responses, so let's hear it!


[/ QUOTE ]

Fat Hack was probably recalling a huge thread a while back.
As I recall it was about a tubular lower a-arm (strutless) design that caused the main cross member to crack. Most agreed the strength of the entire system was compromised because the wide a-arm was mounted to a very narrow crossmember.

 

Wow... not that I was ever going to buy anything from Heidt's anyway seeing as I don't have $3,000 to spend on suspension no one but me will ever see anyway. But that's goddamn ridiculous. Tech support tells you "Show cars only, it's your own fault!", what a load of*****.

If I were going to buy a new IFS, I'd get Fatman stuff. When I was looking into it a year or so ago I talked to them on the phone and they were extremely helpful, and needless to say they're much more reasonably priced.

 

Yeah, I was telling HRTH about that old thread on Heidt's junk...

That "It's show car stuff...you're not supposed to DRIVE it!" quote says it all!!

Should be their new slogan, as someone else suggested!

 

"Just because it has wheels,and a motor,and cost alot of money,doesn't mean you can actually drive it."
"Any use that might involve getting your car wet,or dirty,will void any warranty."


Has anyone done a side by side comparison of Heidt's and Fatman's MII suspension?
Just curious how different they are.

Is there an aftermarket manufacturer,besides Industrial Chassis,
that mounts the lower arms in double shear?

Does G.H. know the meaning of "double shear"?

 

I wonder if GH is going to go the fish route again?
Thats an inside joke, you will have to find the old threads from last year.

 

I'll be under the car tomorrow guys... I'll try to shoot some pics. Thanks for the input so far though.

 

Doesn't surprise ME any.
Yup, I'm the author of that old thread. Still have the pics, let me see...yup, there they are...

Cosmo

 

Forgot to mention:
Make sure that short******** pays up. He's slimier than a sewer rat, but he DOES understand the power of numbers.
If you want me to call him, I will, just to go over old times, if ya know what I mean
Give me a ring on 312 310 6993, and I'll give Gary a call ASAP.
Cosmo.
P.S. Never mention the term "engineering", he doesn't know that one...nor the term "test", or "durability", ah,*****, you get the idea...
P.P.S. The old thread is no longer available, I checked...

 

BTTT


Cosmo, do you still have all of the pictures?

Do you have some documentation as to what happened and the resolution. I would like to compile this stuff for future use.

I did send you a PM

 

I was flipping through an R&C issue last night and came across one of their two-page ads. It says the control arms are made from "3/16 wall tubing". I'm not great at math but I'm pretty sure .110 inch is a whole lot less than 3/16 inch. Hmmm...

 

Here are some pics guys... sorry they're*****py, it's kind of an awkward spot to photograph!

This one kinda shows the bend of the shock bolt alignment...


This one shows the "twist" of the arm


And this one shows the bend where the shock bolts on...

 

i sure hope that you ain't driving that thing like that!

i'd use stock style arms with a strut rod before i'd trust that*****!



jerry

 

I was drivin it!

I just noticed it while I was under there unhooking stuff to yank the motor!

 

Holy*****, talk about FLIMSY.

 

I have a Fatman MII on my car with Fatman tubular arms. The crossmember is way wider and doesn't need to use this spacer tube to make up the gap. My crossmember is as wide as the arms are. No problems ever, lots of miles, plenty of bottoming out.

I'm not an engineer like the other guy on here who builds them, but it seems like that tube deal would be weaker. I'd like to see his opinion on this.

 

You cant really see it in tha picture there, but there is a pretty good sized (and fairly thick) gussset in the inside corner there, but I agree, your setup definitely sounds stronger!

 

Hillbilly,
What you circled is one of the problems. There is a gusset on the back side, but not one on the top. The existing gusset will help support side loads, but not any forces from braking or rotation.
No support can lead to fatigue and eventually bending or failure.

The pictures of the bent tubular arm are scary, good thing you found it when you did.

 

Guys, the problem you are nitpicking here is a problem in Cosmos case and some of the cases I am dealing with here.

Quite honestly that is not the problem here as the spacer and gusset seem to be aligned properly as it was when new. What is the problem and one that seems to be ignored is the control arm FAILED! It is obvious that the control arm was totaly incapable of dealing with the load presented by the coil over. Can you provide specs to the vehicle this is under, what is it, what engine and what type of heads, exhaust and radiator. As in what are they made of iron or aluminum. I want to calculate the sprung weight. I also would like to know what type (brand) shocks you have and what spring rate also.

Hotrod to Hell, please call me or PM me your phone number.

Cosmo, I still haven't heard back from you.

 

Thw car is a 62 Chevy II. It's an SBC with aluminum heads and intake, aluminum radiator and waterpump, Glass front clip. I have QA1 adjustable shocks (I had carerras originally, but this is a street racer, so I wanted more tuning ability) There is 1450lbs on the front wheels, and I originally had 500lb springs, but after talking to the tech at QA1 I went to 365lb springs (a lighter spring compressed more has more stored energy for better weight transfer). Like I said, I KNOW the springs are not binding, and I have never noticed the shocks bottom out, but as stated earlier, if they did, isn't that sort of to be expected on a street car???

 

If there is any chance something is going to bottom out,
it needs tapered rubber bumpers to absorb some of the impact.

The factories use them on their lower a-arms,
but the fashion conscious aftermarket leaves them off for the sake of appearance.

There are round bumpers available,in different heights and shapes,
that will fit over the rod on almost any coil over shock.

Ideally the a-arms would bottom out before the shocks.

 

Good information

It sounds like you do put hard miles on this car. The QA1 shocks are supposed to be pretty darned good. I haven't had any experience with them but I imagine there is some sort of bottom out washer or rubber cone on the shaft, right?

Regardless the control arm failed to hold up.

Heidts will argue that you bottomed it out, repeatedly. Most likely they will not honor any sort of warranty.

Consequently on the 50 Olds I built the arms bent to a lesser degree than yours. I used Aldan coil overs on it with the urethane bushing end. I scrapped the spacers that came with the kit and machined my own that slipped over the protrusions on the control arm and they fish mouthed around the contol arm. Mostly for looks, I wish I had a better picture available.

 

Ok, so everybody has their ideas of WHY the control arms failed (the one in the pics is MUCH worse than the other side), and everybody has said "Man, what a*****ty design!", but no one has given me their opinions on the best repair option! Lik in my original post, Should I repair or replace??? and if I replace, does anyone else make arms that would fit a Heidt's frame???