Guys, I am looking for anybody here on the HAMB who may have experience in dealing with a hot rod and the RMV in Mass. My brother bought a Brookeville 31 Model A roadster out of NY that was a complete running driving car. The selller pulled the flathead engine and trans before the sale then sold it to my brother with a NY registration signed over to him and a notorized bill of sale. My brother bought a 1950 ford flathead and 5 speed for it and installed those and got it running. He then went to the RMV in Mass to process his application for a title and registration so he could put it on the road. The guy at the RMV said he wouldn't do it because the engine had no number on it. Said it had to have them. Told him to go buy a Chevy small block after 1967 and install it and it would have numbers and then he would be ok. Well I'll be damned if he didn't go do that, with paperwork, instead of fighting them, and they are still giving him the run around. He is so tired of fighting these assholes to try and get his car on the road that they have taken all the fun out of him building this car and trying to enjoy it. Does anybody out there in HAMB land have a connection or source or first hand knowledge that may be able to help him with this? There is nothing here that is being done under the table or anything that he is trying to sneak by the dipshits at the RMV, but this is getting past ridiculous and all he wants is to be able to enjoy his car.
See there's your problem. You're trying to do things the "right" way. Sounds like you're brother walked in there, flapped his lips like a good little masshole boot licker who thinks the system is there to help him and when his babbling confused the useless government employee she (it's always a she, you never have problems with the few men that work the desks) refused to process the transaction. Tell him to go to a different DMV with the NY reg and the bill of sale and try and to try and complete the transaction without giving up any superfluous info, same as if he was registering a used car with a 2005 model year. As far as the DMV needs to know the car has every single OEM part with matching serial numbers on everything down to the brake linings. At the end of the day nobody at the DMV cares about anything except stealing your money and following whatever rules and policy they need to to cover their ass and stay employed. Words that make them go through extra motions to cover their asses need to stop coming out of your brother's mouth. He needs to go to a completely different DMV and try and run the paperwork as though it's a normal registration of a private party purchased used car, nothing special. Whatever he puts on the form needs to match exactly what is on the NY reg and bill of sale even if it doesn't reflect reality. Say absolutely nothing about prior DMV problems. Edit: Let me guess, the genius dated the bill of sale too? Bills of sale don't need to be notarized in MA. He needs to go "find" a bill of sale with a date a couple days ago on it, assuming he and the NY seller didn't do anything dumb like initial and date the old registration. It's been a long time since I've done an NY vehicle without a title or old registration but as of ~5yr ago you could fill out a form with the NY DMV which basically said "hey I bought this car <insert details> from your state private party can you please validate that the seller named <sellers name and details> had the right to sell it to me" get back a letter on their letterhead stating that you're good to go. That letter can stand in at the MA DMV instead of the registration. It takes a few weeks but if the reg is no good for some reason that could be an option.
Thanks for the info. One other thing he mentioned to me was that Mass will not do a bonded title? If they are so worried the car might be stolen that would protect them. Anybody know if that is true or not? In NC I explained to the inspector my car was a reproduction body and frame and there were no serial numbers on either. He simply said it had to be a bonded title then and that is the way it went.
You need to go to your Local State Representative and get them to run interference for you, taking your information and running it through the RMV.
Thanks 5window. I'll give him the suggestion. Still waiting to hear from someone who has been down this road and came out the other end successfully.
Just finished getting a title in Mass on my 57 chev I have owned since 1958. I downloaded the application filled it out like the car was untouched since new, even though it now has many changes the most visible being fuel injection. I didn't say a word or offer any advice just handed over the 75$, Clerk looked it over and said I will receive the title in 2 weeks, true to his word title showed up. He didn't care about the car in any form no questions, nothing. Good Luck
No No No. Do not get any additional parties involved, do not shine any light on this, until all the "easy" avenues are exhausted.
MA does not do bonded titles or mechanic liens or many other things like that. It is very hard to adversely get title to a vehicle in MA or register something with an f-ed up history. However, if you put the right things on the paperwork no government employee will ever put eyes on the vehicle you are seeking title and reg for and all should be well. That makes some things pretty easy. The fact that they will let you title a vehicle in your name using the most recent registration in lieu of a title on older vehicles is an absolute godsend for automotive enthusiasts who are dragging long forgotten cars with dead prior owners out of fields, forests, and barns since titles tend to get lost whereas registrations live in the glove box and a bill of sale with a matching name is not really a serious hurdle.
arse_sidewards I just checked the Mass RMV website and it says they can do bonded titles at their discretion. If they were so hesitant at putting a title on a stolen vehicle then you would think they would use this more often. It is what I had to do down here in NC to get my roadster VIN and title.
Another possibility is to first register the car in New York state, then apply for a Mass title. You will need to list a New York address. New York used to give you 10 days to get the vehicle inspected after registration. In the past, I was able to get Mass titles for several vintage cars with only New York registrations and proof that I had paid someone's sales tax.
FritzJr thanks. I think that is the problem for him. The guy had the car registered in NY previously and appeared to use the numbers from the motor to do so. He pulled the engine and trans prior to selling it to my brother and even tho he has a copy of the NY registration there are no numbers on the car anywhere else. Mass's position has been no numbers there is nothing they can do. I am suggesting he take the approach it is a reproduction and ask them to assign a VIN. Then he should be ok.
That sounds like it means in practice they don't have a process for it but reserve the right to do it if you have the right kind of friends. Those rhings aren't for us. They're for when some Kennedy wants to register something that belongs in a museum or for other situations arising out of the Beacon Hill DMV office that people like us can't go to. As a peasant you or I don't want to do anything that requires the government's "discretion". Far easier to just find a way to "have what the need" so that the other peasant across the desk can process the transaction, take our money and get on with his day no risk involved. Between the registration and the bill of sale I think OP "has what they need" if you catch my drift. You'd think but... That shit is just such a massive rats nest unless you know a guy. Like really know a guy. Not "cold called my constituent services office"
Sounds like your buddy needs to look around. Perhaps there's a tag from a long out of business re-builder on the engine that has a number matching the NY registration if you know what I'm saying. Or maybe your buddy can skip the looking around part and can just make the assumption there is such a tag when filling out the DMV forms and talking to the DMV people.... Are there any blank machined pads on an SBC of the vintage your buddy swapped in? Perhaps someone with a letter number stamp set could pay him a visit and "show him" that in an amazing coincidence one of these blank pads just so happens to contain the numbers that are on the NY registration.
It is my brother with this problem. He replaced the no numbered flathead he had installed and running with a 350 chevy engine with numbers and paperwork showing it was sold to him. This was at their suggestion! They had told him if he did that they would then title it using the numbers on the engine. When he had that completed and went back they said no can't do it, and they don't do bonded titles. I know there are a multitude of ways around this but he is trying to do this within the constraints of the law using the process they spell out.
I'd be ok if by "easy" you also mean "legal"but your later posts don't suggest this. I can only relate that titling my '31 in PA while holding an Ohio title resulted in the DMV vacating my title and assigning me a "scrap" designation. Using my state rep in the process meant that he got me and the DMV on the same page and a new VIN and title. Your fun may vary, but I'm sold
His big problem is that the car is now in their system. As others said, too much running off at the yap telling them that he had changed engines before he first went to register it. He should have just gone in with the registration, bill of sale and insurance papers and applied for title and registration and kept his mouth shut. Then had the safety inspection and sometime later (Months or a year or so) applied for an engine change designation on the title. A very bad case of not doing his homework ahead of time. The guy in New York screwed him over by selling him a car that used the engine number as the vin and keeping the engine too. https://www.mass.gov/how-to/transfer-your-registration-and-title-from-out-of-state.
Mr48chev. Actually he never told them anything about the engine. The flathead was in it when he started this with them. They were the ones who told him to change it out for the 350 one with the numbers. I agree the guy in NY did him wrong, but I don't know what could be in their system for info as they say the car has no numbers and therefore they will not title it. I think he needs to approach this like a replica or kit car with no numbers and have them assign a vin to the car. Once a vin is on it he can work on getting the title. Thanks.
It hasn't been mentioned about sales tax. You can't register a car in Mass. without paying sales tax no mater where you bought the car.
He would be happy to pay whatever sales tax they want if he can get to the point where they agree that he bought a car, but try paying sales tax on a vehicle with no numbers and see how they figure that one out! In NC they attempted to get me to pay back taxes on my Brookeville roadster from the time I bought it until I applied for the VIN. I politely pointed out it wasn't a legitimate automobile (just a collection of auto parts) until I built it and got the VIN assigned. From that point it was taxable as a car. They had to agree and there was no argument after that. And trust me we know this would all have been a hell of a lot easier if he had just gotten a car with a title!
Don’t recall if this was asked or not, but is there a serial number on the registration? Since FH Fords don’t have serial numbers, if there’s one on the title, has to be on/in the car somewhere I’d think.
Spot-On! I here in WNY, Have had to go a county over to a lil' more remote DMV... Amazing how different they can be.
This is getting really confusing. Can we get a step by step of what happened and when and what the DMV was told and what they said and when? I think it's possible the DMV person telling you to find an engine with numbers may have been trying to do you a favor on the down low and your habitually law abiding brother may have not realized what they were advising. Some people ya can't help <shrug>
At their discretion means 1. They will never do this. 2. They might do this if you are a townie family member of the RMV employee working the counter. Or 3. You are paying off the townie that has a family member that works the counter. Bonded tiles don’t really exist in MA.
I’m confused as well. If it was a current registration and he took it to the RMV why did the engine number even come up. Did they require an inspection? Here’s the thing with New York registrations, they are issued yearly. Years ago there were a few people who used to sell “titles” in Hemmings, what they actually sold you was an old registration. There would be multiple registrations for each car. What was happening when the DMV’s computerized their records they found there were multiple cars with the same VIN or serial number throughout the country. Many DMV’s got wise to this and cracked down on the use of NY registrations especially if the we’re out of date.
I am in NC. He is in Mass. Best I can figure is the guy he got the car from used the engine number to register it in NY when he had it. Once he pulled the engine, prior to selling it, that number was gone. So even though it shows on the registration there is no other place on the reproduction body or frame where that number is. Because of this they are giving him a hard time about registering and titling it in Mass. Again, this is best as I can understand. My position is to disregard the NY registration and simply apply to the state for an assigned VIN. Same as any kit car or reproduction car would have to do. Once the number is assigned he should be able to get a title. That is basically what I had to do here in NC for my Brookeville reproduction roadster.
Flathead V8’s don’t have engine numbers. Least the few I’ve had didn’t. As mentioned before, pull the transmission inspection cover on the floor board, look at the top center there is a small pad with a serial number stamped in it. See if that number matches what’s on his registration.
Budget36 that stuff went with the engine when the owner pulled it before selling. My brother bought it as a roller and installed his own flathead and 5 speed.
The Jalopy Journal
