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Help me define "Proportion"....

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by HeyMang, Dec 21, 2006.

  1. HeyMang
    Joined: Oct 17, 2006
    Posts: 125

    HeyMang
    Member
    from So Cal

    Main Entry: 1pro·por·tion [​IMG]
    Pronunciation: pr&-'por-sh&n
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English proporcion, from Anglo-French, from Latin proportion-, proportio, from pro for + portion-, portio portion --
    1 : harmonious relation of parts to each other or to the whole : [SIZE=-1]BALANCE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]SYMMETRY[/SIZE]


    So I was reading Ryans post on the JJ's 11th anniversary, and I came across how he found out what proportion is. I found myself soon intrigued: how is proportion perceived as pertaining to automobiles? What does it take to get perfect proportions? Is it raking the front an inch and eleven/sixteenths? Is it chopping the top of a Model A Coupe 4 5/8" up front and 4 3/16" out back? Is it deciding that the windshield doesn't flow with the rag top and making another from scratch?


    Now this question could be directed directly at Ryan and how he "found" proportion , but I would like everyone to chime in with how they measure/assess/plan/contemplate/derive proportion pertaining to automobiles.

    I know proportion is looking at the whole picture, but I am more concerned with how you came up with your idea to section a 5/8" strip of metal out of the body of your shoebox to get it to sit "right".
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 59,670

    squirrel
    Member

    what, you want someone to explain how art works? :)
     
  3. Scott B
    Joined: Dec 31, 2002
    Posts: 549

    Scott B
    Member
    from Colorado?

    I think he is asking how to make art...:)
     
  4. I've been thinking about doing a write up on the subject from a design point of view, it's a very subjective ...uh... subject, but there are ways to check/test your design if you're not one of those guys who has it naturally hardwired into his brain.

    It's really kindof cool once you study it for a while, the human brain has a way of telling us what's right and what's off.
     
  5. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 59,670

    squirrel
    Member

    I dont know how to make it right, but I can tell when it's wrong.
     
  6. HeyMang
    Joined: Oct 17, 2006
    Posts: 125

    HeyMang
    Member
    from So Cal

    I know its a tough question with no definite answer: like asking asking Jackson Pollock why he scribbled all over his paper..... ;)


    Guess I am just trying to get my abstract juices flowing for another project....
     
  7. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,756

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    AMEN
     
  8. Phil1934
    Joined: Jun 24, 2001
    Posts: 2,716

    Phil1934
    Member

    I'll start. I like the turret to be one third the total body/frame height.
     
  9. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    (i'm such a whore):D

    Proportion........
     

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    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  10. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,669

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    I think this has a lot to do with anything with good aesthetics.
     
  11. It IS a very subjective subject. Everyone has a different idea of perfect proportions. Example: "Those two coupes are almost perfect, if they were channeled..."
     
  12. Thanks, now I have a headache.:D
     
  13. true! ask Leonardo Da Vinci

    That's what I'm talking about though, there are shapes, forms and ratios in nature that our mind relates to better than others.

     
  14. You said what I was trying to say, said it better, and said it first.

    Damn.

    -bill
     
  15. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 59,670

    squirrel
    Member

    although Kevin had a good point about this:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Mike Rouse
    Joined: Aug 12, 2004
    Posts: 374

    Mike Rouse
    Member

  17. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 11,130

    metalshapes
    Member

    I had no idea there was a formula for that...:D


    For me, a car has the right proportions if no one part or detail jumps out at you, the first time you look at it.
    If your eye gets drawn at the amount of Chop, or how far the axle is in front of the grille, or anything like that, then thats the part that is not proportioned to the rest of the car.

    That is why the Chrisman Coupe, the Don Williams Coupe, and the Buttera 3W are my favorite Hot Rods.

    I " borrowed " from all three of them when I built my Roadster....
     

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  18. HeyMang
    Joined: Oct 17, 2006
    Posts: 125

    HeyMang
    Member
    from So Cal

    Good point on the "Golden Ratio".... I will see if I can find examples in some of our favorite rods.... T'would be interesting to make a car with a much "golden ratio" in it as possible.
     
  19. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 16,939

    Paul
    Editor

    I love Phi.
     
  20. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 59,670

    squirrel
    Member

  21. Nads
    Joined: Mar 5, 2001
    Posts: 11,875

    Nads
    Member
    from Hypocrisy

    I love fur pi.

    FiberGlassics is in the process of redefining proportion, he's challenging the norm.
     
  22. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 16,939

    Paul
    Editor

    I admit pi will get you a round,
    but with phi will take you fo and fum
     
  23. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 11,130

    metalshapes
    Member

    I'm not sure if I can see something like this reduced to numbers.

    For me it's standing back, looking at it, and moving stuff around untill it looks right.

    And just incase it wasn't already clear, I'm not compairing my Roadster to the other 3 Cars.
    I'm just saying what was on my mind when I built it...
     
  24. chuckspeed
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 1,643

    chuckspeed
    Member

    I'm in the middle of reading GM's history from 1919-1964 as written by Al Sloan; there's a whole chapter on Styling. Turns out Harley Earl was employed by a custom coachbuilder in California B4 Sloan hired him away and started the Art and Color Section of GM in '27; so...he was kind of a gut proportion guy before driving vehicle design.

    Anyway, according to Harley, he spent over 30 years of his career making the American car longer and lower, because the human eye prefers oblong shapes over square ones. To prove his point once, he had a group of senior execs sit in a auditorium while the body of a Cadillac was removed, the frame Z'd three inches, and the body reinstalled by a large team of fabricators...

    Think Overhaulin' - live. the visual of a buncha suits inna auditorium watching as a brand new caddy is channeled is amazing...

    He had the execs vote on the car - before vs. after. The decision was unanimous; the car did indeed look 100% better lower.

    Proportion.
     
  25. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 22,707

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    I don't believe proportion can be broken down in numbers. Personally, I think it's something that lives and breathes through a combination of factors that aren't really tactile so to speak.

    In my mind, a car with perfect proportions is a car that is so tightly focused on form and function that there is no doubt of its purpose. Harmony. Tune. Tempo.

    Shit... even when I write it doesn't make much sense.

    You know it when you see it.
     
  26. SUHRsc
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 5,100

    SUHRsc
    Member

    when i look at a car....if any "one" thing stands out...then to me its out of proportion
    your eye should be able to blur over and you'll still see the same mental image as if you see it crystal clear
    little doo-dad's and slight imperfections in a flowing line throw it off...
    your can really can be
    too low
    too raked
    too level

    its all opinion based but it truely can be "wrong"

    a 1/4 inch is a mile if its in the wrong direction
    Zach
     
  27. Sam F.
    Joined: Mar 28, 2002
    Posts: 4,225

    Sam F.
    BANNED

    my thought;

    ,,i think measurments as small as 1/2 an inch can make a big difference in porportions when it comes to things such as ride height,top chop .etc..

    then again...measurments are helpfull,,but the eye is the best tool.,
     
  28. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,669

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    I agree with both of you (Alex and Ryan) when it comes to the act of creating. I don't picture really gifted people picking up a ruler for every cut or tweak.

    Right is right. And to stand back to look at the result - knowing it's "right" - then start comparing proportions and numbers you get some really neat results.

    Not the rule or formula for sure, but definite parallels and there is plenty of correlation with aesthetics and that number.
     
  29. SUHRsc
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 5,100

    SUHRsc
    Member

    its funny how fibonacci works into when things look right
    sometimes i look at something and think it looks a tad off
    then if you relay it into that ratio....it seems that if taken closer to the ratio it would look more correct

    sometimes you have to make it "wrong"(by the book) to be "right"(pleasing to the eye)
    ***such as the dawg on hood line of a 29 on 32 rails!***
     
  30. Yeah, there is really no formula for it, but there are certain things that make more sense to the eye than others....

    That car looks like Rosie O'Donell (sp?) ok, so .0001% of the population gets off on that, whereas most people would consider the cars that metalshapes shows to be close to right. Why?

    The brain responds to certain things, and if you really dig down, I think some of those things can be quantified in some way, that's what really interests me. I've seen people who were "taught" to be better designers than they started, some people have the gift, but that doesn't mean that others have no hope.

    The HAMB is deep today :D
     

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