Just found this article which would support my theory about bent rod, bent crank or bad journals. Look at the bearings patterns for "imperfect journal geometry" and "bent or twisted connecting rod": http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=engine_bearing_failure
Oldsrocket, Great ****ysis there! Certainly looks like a geometry issue. Just for comparison, here's a pic of some bearings I inspected after this 289 ford broke an oil pump drive shaft. There's plenty of miles on it and its due for a rebuild but he just needs this to make it thru the summer. I was looking for starvation damage and to make sure it was worth replacing the pump. This engine doesn't owe him anything its lived a long time and performed well.
This is great insight and feedback. I plan on checking the remaining bearings since I have the pan off. Not taking into consideration of potential cam issues and ***uming the other bearings are similar, what direction would you take at this point? Pull and re-machine? Pull and clean and re***emble? Or, Carefully put everything back together and run as is?
You can find out if it is poor journal geometry easy enough. Cut a small straight edge down and have it span the journal being sure not to have it contact the journal fillets, then see if a feeler gauge will sneak under the center of the journal easier than it would on the outside edges. If so, I think you might want to have a talk with your machinist. Likewise, if it is found to be bent rod or crank. That is stuff a machine shop should catch during their processes. Unfortunately, it doesn't really get you any closer to being on the road until you know for sure. Depending on what you find after pulling a few more caps, I think that at this point you might be invested and it might be best to pull the engine and really go over it with a fine tooth comb. At this point you are only head gaskets away from having it most of the way dis***embled anyway.
If it's knocking I certainly wouldn't run "as is". You obviously need to find the source. No amount of cleaning is going to get rid of a knock. Those noises are signs that something is unhappy and an indicator that eventually (usually sooner than later) something will give. The next step will depend on what else you find from the other caps and checking the cam and lifters. If you find it is an issue attributed to machine shop error, I think I would talk to them if for no other reason than to get it off your chest. Unless you think it was just a bad day for the shop and trust them, I think I'd be looking for another shop and be clear as to their checking, balancing, and machining procedure. Checking for straightness of all components should be part of their procedure right along with magna-fluxing of all parts. If it is bad journal geometry- it should be able to be fixed by turning the crank again with a new stone and going with the next step up of oversize bearings. If it is bent crank, you will need to find a new one and have it checked for straightness and balanced. If it is bent/twisted rod(s), you will need to find replacements and have them checked for straightness, stress relieved and general R&R. If you end up having to pull pistons, plan on a rehone and possibly a new set of rings. PS- my vote is bad journal geometry or bent crank. The fact that two connecting rod bearings show the same patterns would otherwise mean that both rods would be bent. Which would be highly unlikely. Again if you consistently see the same pattern working it's way toward the front of the engine, it is likely journal geometry. If it is more defined and sever toward the rear of the engine (in this case), I would say the crank is bent.
The machine shop i went to has a very good reputation around here, but the guy toots his own horn a lot. I sort of got the impression that since they do a lot of race engines that he felt my mild 327 was a " piece of cake scenario" to him. I had to take the block back to him when I started measuring the compression height of the pistons vs. the deck height and realized he made an error. I think if I have anything re-machined it's going elsewhere. So, let's ***ume that the knock winds up being in the valve train, would you still tear it down? I really need to fight my impatience on this one. I'm itching to drive this car bad!
Oldsrocket has you lined out here pretty well. What youve found means that you must have more info and to investigate further to make a final call. If you can't overcome the impatience at this point and give into it, the level of frustration you feel now will be minimal to what follows and the expense will multiply. What things appear to be is that your crank journals look like this |~~| instead of this |---| but you need to pull and photo more caps and check it per olds rockets post.
If you are really impatient.... you could always buy a cheap running junkyard motor from CL and give it a quick and dirty dupli-color rebuild and run that around while you patiently work on the 327. If there was a time for patience to prevail it is while working with engine ***embly. I usually see 305s and 307s, sometimes 350s in running shape for $200-$300 around here. Or see if a buddy has one he'd be willing to loan or rent you in the meantime. That would get you on the road quickly while you get your own engine sorted out. Unfortunately, there is no magic answer for what you should do now. You will not know until you have all the facts and then you can come up with a well thought out plan of attack. Or you could always throw it back together, blow it up and do it all again later...
I actually have an old 350 that I used for a while. I built this 327 as a proper hot rod replacement engine and did the swap recently. Looks like the only way to do this right and not have nagging / doubting thoughts about the engine is to yank it and have it checked out by a competent machine shop. I think it's going to be cheaper in the long run. I'll continue to post pics and observations of what I find so that hopefully someone else can benefit from my situation and everyone's collective knowledge and advice. This has been a good learning experience, I just hope it doesn't cost too much getting it all sorted out. You've been a great help, thank you
You are getting impatient again..... Take another hour or so and check the other rod bearings and even a couple main bearings if you can. Check your pushrods out and check for bend. Use a pick or similar tool to try and pull out the lifters from the top. If they are hard to pull out you may also have cam/lifter issues. If any of the lifters are damaged, they are likely mushroomed and will be difficult to pull out from the top. If they are difficult, it is a good chance you are also looking at cam/lifter trouble. If they are really hard to get out or you can't then you need to take it to somebody because you could risk damage to the block pulling them out and scoring the lifter holes. If they are easy to pull out, then it's good news and you may not have cam/lifter issues afterall. A few more checks and inspections to verify cam/valve train is ok, and then you can focus more on the rotating ***embly. As you said, this is a "good learning experience" you might as well see it through and get that learning experience rather than throw your hands up.
I agree. I plan on checking everything and reporting my findings so that others can see exactly what happened if they do a search. Ultimately, it seems I will be best off having another machine shop clean, inspect and measure my stuff at a bare minimum and take corrective actions if necessary.
when you check the lifters check the pressure face ( part that rides the cam to see if there is still a crown , no crown lifter failure ( the harden suface has started to wear thru ) also check for galling on the sides of the lifter , I seen some new ones stick in the lifter bore and make noises , and also does the new distributor have the correct oil galley at the bottom???? some of the off brands do not and cause a lack of oil situation
If stuff has gone through the bearings and pump, you should at least blow out the pushrods, & they do need to come out & get checked. Too bad about the crank. I went through something similar with a machine shop in SLC. Great reputation, but they hustled mine through because it was a minor job for them. Damn crank actually broke in half because they screwed up one fillet.
If it did not knock before being tore down, either the crank was mishandled or you didnt get your crank back. Rods for that matter either. There was a local engine builder that was known for swapping out goody parts, for run of the mill thinking the owner would never know. Dad always use to stamp parts with his initials, in a descrete spot to know HIS parts came back to him.
I make obvious marks, so people will know I'm watching, but I also make secret marks with a bent scribe, inside the oil p***ages. So far only one guy tried to switch my parts & he actually had a good reason. Still he didn't tell me until I mentioned that the rotor I'd taken him didn't have my initials on it.
Ok checked all the remaining rod bearings as well as main bearings. All pretty much the same thing. I already posted pics of #8&7 so here are #s 1-6
I noticed after I ****oned everything up that the black oxide coating of the ARP rod bolts was scuffed off. The only way I can see this happening is if they were chaffing on something. The crank is only 3.25" stroke so I'm not really sure what they could be rubbing against except for the crank s****er in my oil pan. I couldn't find any evidence of that happening when I looked at the pan though. Anyone have any ideas? I hope this was the source of the noise. I never detected any interference when ***embling the bottom end. It might be hard to show what I'm talking about in the pics but here goes:
I would say you have some crank issues judging by those bearings. To me is looks more severe than just journal geometry. The nicks on the rod bolts are concerning. You are running a pretty high lift for a street engine. Look at the cam lobes and see if there is any interference. Also check the bottoms of the cylinder castings for Knicks.
That is an incredible amount of bearing wear in a very short time span. That crank needs to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb. Definitely plastigage everything before you take it apart. Once it is apart, I would be interested in the size of all journals. I always checked my cranks at both ends of the journal and again at 90* to that plane. This will ferret out taper and roundness concerns. Bob
Can you send those pics to your machinist? Those wear patterns in the bearings should easily show a variance in the crank journals when miced or checking is for straightness. That's from 250 miles right?
I've pulled apart engines with 200k on them and those bearings looked mint compared to the pictures we see here. Bob
They have been turned down, but I now suspect that my machinist took a turn and burn approach with me. I pasti-gauged everything before installing the crank and rods and had about 0.002" clearance. I know plastigauge is not the best but it's what I had. Suffice to say, I'm taking this to another machinist to see what can be done. Thanks everyone Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Correct on the mileage. I think it's time to find another machinist. I'm not necessary blaming the guy who did the original work, but during the initial process I was left with nagging doubts about some of his work. I let my doubts give way to the machinist's experience and reputation as I am a novice.. Next time I need to need my gut instinct and ask more questions etc.. Lesson learned Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Is that rod bolt with the shiny spot anywhere near the dip stick? I have seen where people leave out the short tube inside of the pan and the disptick will get into the crank. Those bearings have some odd wear to them but I don't see any that are worn to a point of knocking. You said the engine developed a knocking/ticking noise.... which is it, a knock or a tick? Engine noises can be very distinct and knowing the differences make diagnosing a problem real easy. But that is real hard to do posting a video or sound clip..... I have had people try to do that taking video with a cell phone. I hear Aunt Bea in the background and the cooling fan, not the noise I am trying to hear.... LOL
The Jalopy Journal
