i repaired 2 fenders sprayed high fill , blocked sanded , primed with Kicker epoxy went on beautiful , looks great except where any areas with bondo the areas have a duller tone , i didn,t use sealer ??
Kirker epoxy does not hide, I usually apply it first and body work and surfacer on top. I'm just an amateur though.
^^^^^Word to your mother...not sure what that means exactly but I meant it in agreement with @dalesnyder
Are you wanting the epoxy you sprayed to be your finish? If so just let it cure and run a red scotchbrite over it and recoat it.
Need more specific info. Repaired 2 fenders. -- How did you repair them, what was the surface of the fender-bare metal-sanded paint or primer? sprayed high fill. --what exactly did you spray and sprayed over what-bare metal, old paint, bondo? Block sanded. --what did you block sand with what (sandpaper grit) and how much material did you remove (down to metal , bondo, primer, or paint? Primed with Kirker epoxy. -- is this the epoxy and what did you spray it over-bare metal, primer, or bondo and did you mix it correctly? https://0c364d4a-2445-4790-b9fe-3ac...d/f1e4a4_6915bc8b0ae2433abab1d5457977b5cc.pdf There are a lot of variables.
From my experience 2k primers do that over body fillers even Glass Coat urethane wipes. All I ever did was sand it down with 400 then go to 600 and base clear coat and it’s hidden. The jury is still out on whether or not the paint will lift on those spots but what I used it on (gas pump) stays indoors and is in artificial lighting so I may never know.
If you applied filler and high build to bare metal, you may have issues. High build is typically an acrylic, basically sprayable body filler. Depends on the brand though. Epoxy typically goes on bare metal, apply filler, apply high build, apply sealer. Most epoxies can be used as a sealer with different mix ratio. Really need more info on what you did and what brand / type of paint. Everyone has their own method, the "rules" have changed over the years as different products hit the market. Your original question of filler leaving a witness mark thru epoxy. Sounds like it was still porous - not sanded or blended completely. Filler and primer have different "hardness" and will sand at different rates. If the filler is harder than the primer around it, you'll dig the primer out around it.
I believe he is referring to KIRKER epoxy. Its a lower priced epoxy that leaves a very nice satin finish. Used it on my sedan delivery as well as a truck prior to top coating.
If you see sanding scratches or texture difference in your primer, you have one, another, or both things happening. First, you absolutely must make sure that your coatings are fully mixed! Solids will separate out and end up at the bottom of the can. If you scrape the bottom of the can with a clean paint stick, and it comes back up with anything thick on it, that coating is not mixed properly! Solids are what make thickness. You cannot build with water. Primer that is the consistency of water will not fill texture in filler, or anywhere else. All brands of body filler, unless specifically of the variety that is made with a chemical composition that makes it waterproof (says it on the can), are porous. That means that any coating that has a molecule small enough to do so will flow into the filler pores. If your solids are still in the paint can, your sprayed primer is IN your filler, and not ON your filler I gave up and bought an industrial paint shaker. I run the hell out of my cans before starting. You cannot over-mix. You need to make absolutely sure that you are using the correct gun setup. If the instructions call for a 1.8, or a 2.2 tip, or otherwise, and you are using a 1.1 or a 1.3 tip, you will have problems. I keep extra 1.8 tips on hand, and have chucking reamers that run from 1.9, to 2.8, by tenths. I will put a tip in the lathe and render it to the exact size that the instructions call for (and then engrave it). Also, an HVLP spray gun is High Volume, Low Pressure. Low pressure is easy to get. You just turn down the regulator. High volume? Are you sure that you are getting that? Issues can be created starting right at the compressor. I have seen oil separators/regulators/dryers, etc. attached to the side of a compressor that are all 1/4" NPT. That's a restrictor. You should run the biggest of those units that you can fit and afford. The next is that your quick release fittings can also be volume choke points. Fittings of the T, A, M, I, L, and I/M variety are considered to be low-flow. Just look at this, and tell me what you see. Keep in mind that these fit in the same place! The one on the right is a Milton V standard. They, or clones, are not hard to find, and they are not expensive. The Milton V can flow a alarming 74 standard cubic feet per minute! You do not need to buy Milton V's. Anything with the V designation is compatible, so yes, even Harbor Freight (and Princess Auto, which is the equivalent of HF up in America's Hat). I cannot emphasize this enough, all of these sizes matter. If it goes into the gun wrong, it will come out wrong. If it goes into the gun right, and the gun is wrong, it will come out wrong. If it comes out of the gun wrong, it will never land on the panel right. And, as always, if the panel is not right, no amount of what comes out of a gun is likely to fix that! My process: Start with naked, clean metal, on all surfaces. Metal work as far as it can be plausibly done in a reasonable period of time, and within customer budget. Apply two coats of DTM (direct to metal) epoxy primer, which is then sanded to the grit specified to take another coat. (Optional) Apply epoxy primer, sprayed to coating manufacturer reduction instructions, to render it a sealer. That is stage one. That renders a panel to a state where it is stable, and protected from indoor humidity. Panels in this state can be stored for a very long time, provided that they are kept out of sunlight. You can skip the sealer step if you are working straight-through. I do it, even if I will be working through within the same week. You don't want moisture in your primer. Next, sand the sealer coat to manufacturer instructions to open it to begin taking other coats (essentially remove that coat). Apply any filler necessary to correct any defects. Sand that to the grit that the manufacturer instructions for coating it. Apply two coats of high-build primer, with the proper gun tip. If you are not going to immediately work-through, use the manufacture instructions to reduce to render it a sealer, and spray that sealer coat. That, again, will render the panel stable, if kept out of the sun. When you resume, sand that coat to open it. Sand the high-build to perfection. If you sand through, apply more to that area, and fether it in. Sand that out, carefully. Topcoat. Remember, you cannot fix anything in a topcoat. Those are for color and shine. Prior to that is where you make or break a good paint job. A few caveats. I do not, nor should you ever use a random assortment of paint supplies from various vendors. Coatings manufacturers spend millions-of-dollars every year to make sure that their products work properly. They cannot possibly, nor should they be expected to, test every single permutation of chemicals that someone might be able to combine. Stick with a product line. You will note that I did not recommend any products (only sizes and standards). I do not do endorsements. Endorsements are the equivalent to being paid to lie. I have sprayed what people claim to be the lowest-quality product lines to prove a point. Most paint problems have nothing whatsoever to do with the product. Trust the process. This is the way.
This is why I am always emphatic that nobody take instruction from anyone but those that use the exact product, and have read, and understand the full set of instructions, and/or have read, and understand them themselves. The R&D departments of these companies are enormous, and all of these products are under constant development and revision. There is a common saying in the modern disruptive corporate business model that applies here: "If that is the way that we have always done it, then we are probably doing it wrong." Every single thing changes, and constantly. The way I sprayed in 1993 is not the same as 2003, and 2003 differed from 2013, and is even yet still different from 2023. Rules and performance standards change. Products are changed to fit those requirements. I cringe every time I hear of someone claiming to get "excellent results" from a Binks Model 7, or a DeVilbiss JGA-502 for auto body finishing. 80% of the product that they bought was sucked into the filters, or blew away in the breeze, and of the 20% that made it to the panel, more than half of it started to eject the solvent on the way there. Modern coatings are optimized for modern equipment.
@gimpyshotrods Thanks for the clear, concise, experienced advice! Now then…..recommend ONE gun for the epoxy, the high fill and the top coat. Or is that a dream? Thanks!
I'm not a professional painter, but so far I've had good luck by doing it with my method. I do all the metal work of stripping and repairing any rust and patch panels. Once it's all done I go over all the bare metal with my paint stripper disc, and wipe it down with a tack cloth. Then I immediately shoot epoxy primer/sealer. My next step is to do all my filler work, and get the body as smooth as possible. After that I give the body several coats of high build primer, and then sand it smooth. Ready for paint after that, and I don't shoot anything more on it prior to painting.
I'm glad all y'all NEVER have or will see what I see. I'd hate to burst your bubbles. If someone came to me and offered $200/hr but I had to do filler over epoxy? Fuck off. Keep your money or waste it elsewhere. "Yeah but I always and blah fuck wazoo and my shit is the king mac doodads so you don't know shit!" Filler on bare metal only for me. "OH MY GOD!! IT'S GONNA RUST OUT!" I can point to shit that's still show quality since 1990, no rust yet. Should I worry? Epoxy cures slow, which means the solvents are still "wet" within, some products for up to 72hrs. Gives em time to really soak into any exposed filler or areas of lower primer mil thickness. Epoxy is a good sealer if it's reduced proper and spec'd for it, and that cure time is ½, maybe less, but it makes a nice base for paint chemical bond. The biggest mistake is the operator, and all the told me that I should never zippity doo dah and my paint guy BS. Read the tech sheets (they're free), use compatible matl, and until you have 4 decades under your ass of finding out what does and doesn't work stick with what they say. But filler on epoxy? Not me, and I remember when DP90 was the hottest ticket in the game so, y'all do you. Why? For the same reason the OP can see it UNDER his epoxy. BTW, once it cures you can indeed scuff and recoat as was suggested above, just don't take too much down in the fill spots. Pictures would help. We like pics...
I painted a motorcycle a few years ago. It went to a show and got a trophy. It still looks great. To prove a point, I used all TCP Global products, and sprayed it with three different Harbor Freight purple guns. One original, two modified. Paint is about hard work, and not always the tools.
Didn’t spray a sealer? Epoxy is a sealer. Exposed filler areas will usually absorb products sprayed over it. Even a sealer like epoxy. Bondo isn’t designed to be top coated directly. to correct the issue. Scuff the epoxy, I’d wet sand the dulled filler areas with something like 400-500 then recoat
Lately I have been spraying Upol 2253 high build primer. https://u-pol.com/en-us/product/coatings/primers/national-rule-41-high-build-primer/ 4:1 it sprays as a primer. 4:1:1 it sprays as a surfacer. 4:1:2 it sprays as a sealer. As a surfacer and a sealer, closes filler right up. I cannot even find the filler spot after even a single coat. It sets a little harder than some other high build primers, but I do not mind that, the added effort required to sand gives me more precise control. With softer products it is possible to accidentally over-sand.
Word, word-up, and word to your mother all mean right-on, as in I agree with you. It is a somewhat newer version of catching ones drift, or picking up what another is laying down. Ya dig?
Lmao! Highlander I love reading your posts! I'm with ya. If I have a car blasted, I'll throw a coat of epoxy, or sometimes the upol dtm on it. But I always grind the areas I'm filling on. That's how I've always done it. Makes me feel better about adhesion. And I'm currently licking my calf on a car that I tried out a new sealer on. Thought it was comparable to the old velvaseal, but it didn't work out. Saw a couple of bubbles while buffing, and now I'm repainting those panels. I'm all about mechanical adhesion. Shit needs a good scratch to grab onto in my opinion. But we all do it our own way. Seems like every time I try somebody else's way it ends up costing me money
I do what the product manufacturer says to do. They did more research and development than anything anecdotal can hold a candle to.
My .02 cents isn't even worth that. as a Hobbyist painter on my Junk, I have come to the conclusion that 99.9 % 0f painting is preparation and attention to compatibility of Components. Thats why it is getting really difficult to get help in Forums anymore because you get 59 and 1/2 different answers. And I really like the ones that say I've been using this shit for 30 years and it's the Cat's Meow, The chemical Industry Changes Daily, vendors for Raw Materials especially from literally 1000's of suppliers and refineries around the World. They Change their Formulas regularly because of Chemical assays that are available or Cheaper. There Chemist are constantly Finagling with the Recipe. If you're Hanging on Joe Blows Paint because it's worked for me for 10 Years, and everybody else is Shit. you are Delusional. I've been in the Industry of Manufacturing these Products Physically with the Bill of Material in my hand and making the Products, and yes, a big business is Tolling, I get Tickled with some argue about the same shit with a Different Lable. Just fruitful thought Hell it's only worth .02 cents.
The Jalopy Journal
