HEMI Tech- Transmission adapters, flywheels, starters

...more of those damned shiverlay parts...
Obviously 'he' hasn't tried to do the swap...how, and where exactly, is the arm mounted without doing some surgery??
Use a hydraulic bearing. Yes they are expensive.
Yes, this has been covered a couple of times, start searching and reading.


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Thanks gentlemen. My experience level with engine building is somewhat limited. It probably shows. You guys make it easier though. Thanks again.

 

Ask lots of questions. It easier to learn from mistakes that others make...lol

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A lot cheaper too!

 

Pictures are worth more than a bunch of made up measurements. Preliminary measurements and mock up indicates the adapter between the block and transmission will need to be at least 2.5" thick, but depending on the actual measurements of the flywheel and pressure plate assembly could be thicker.





The answer for these extended block adapters is simple. Originally there was an aluminum bellhousing that bolted to the back of the extended block. This is the key. When I'm certain of the measurements, all that will need to be done is cutting down the bellhousing close to the required thickness, welding in an aluminum plate, milling the "adapter" flat to size, turning the new IBR size in the lathe, and then back to the mill for locating, drilling, and tapping the four mounting holes for the ears on the transmission case. A couple of hours worth of time, an aluminum plate, and some shielding gas.



It probably would be wise to make some rear engine mounts and weld them onto the adapter to replace the ones that get cut off.

I'll make a complete write up with pictures when I get this project completed, right now I'm waiting on a flywheel to begin.

 

Stupid stuff I need to know: How do adaptors hold up at the drags and If I ran a turbo 400 behind a 354 would I need a mid motor mount as well as front motor mount?

 

On the subject of pilot bearings. All my std shift kits come with a roller pilot bearing assembly.
As you can see, the crankshaft center hub is machined to accept the bearing, and no other "adapter" pieces are needed. This allows the use of an over the counter flywheel.

Using this type of crank hub adapter, which is recessed on the back where the crankshaft sets, along with a flywheel register on the front side, guarantees perfect flywheel alignment which is not possible if relying only on the eight attaching bolts.

 

anyone out there familiar with those vintage? aluminum adapters that are supposed to fit early 904s or 727s picked up 2 on ebay wondering if anybody has any info on these,

 

Tom, water your thoughts on roller pilot bearings vs. the Oilite pilot bearings? I've heard great things about both.

 

"Vintage" means different things to different people. Since I have been making adapters since 1980, some of them might be called 'vintage'...
Because of the difference in the location of the starter, ½" higher on the 904, virtually all current adapters are for the small block 727. In order to use the 904 the entire trans will have to be rotated CCW on the block adapter to effectively lower the starter.
The usual problem when buying a used/second hand adapter is that you are not likely to get all of the pieces originally supplied by the vendor.
A complete package should include the block adapter, crank flange adapter, crank bolts, block adapter to block bolts and trans to adapter bolts. Some adapter kits for brand-x trans also use a starter other than Mopar and will have some special instructions regarding same and some (like early B&M) will have a very special flexplate.


With regards to 35 DodgeHotRod, I highly recommend installing a flywheel and clutch package for reference while you are collecting numbers. The trans position is ideally set by having 100% spline engagement with the disc.

If anyone has questions feel free to send a PM.

Gary

 

Interesting stuff! I have a '51 331 with the extended bell and would love to adapt it to an 833 4 speed. I also have all the stock equipment to mount the semi-auto trans including that aluminum bell. It looks like with your setup you'd be able to use a regular (vs hydraulic) throwout bearing? How is the project progressing?

 

Mr Monkey, this thread may help with some of your questions:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326725&page=2

Basically, there is very little room for an arm of any kind. The best bet, albeit expensive, is a hyd bearing.


Gary
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I'm with Gary on this concept of using a Hydraulic type t-out bearing. I have seen an arm used, but the bell housing had to be cut to accomplish this. I believe Tuck or Bob Bleed did this in one of the Mad Fab videos.

Hydraulic t-out bearings are available from various sources, but I would think very seriously about the McLeod t-out. Self adjusting, just bleed and your're done forever.

 

yeah we just cut out a slot for the arm... worked perfect... i'll see if I have any pics.

 

Tuck man! That would be great if you can get that posted up! Hydraulic t-out bearings can be super pricey, so having mechanical type t-outs options would be a good thing! Thanks man!

 

Dodge/"baby" Hemi to T5 adaptation. Have a peek at this if it will help you!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390885

 

I'll be running a tko 600 behind my 58 392. It's an A1 casting from a New Yorker. Using a Quick Time bell housing and hydraulic clutch. The engine is being built at HemiHaines in Florida.I'm figuring out the engine mounts and front suspension at the moment. The guys at Keisler engineering sorted out the set up for me with regards to the adapter plate,bell housing and gearbox. I know, not the cheapest way to go but it should all work together. Build thread will start in feb.

 

I think you'll like the tko600. I have one behind the 330 Desoto in my 50 Merc. My trans has a noise in 5th that, after I get some other things sorted out, I will have Kiesler sort out for me. The .64 OD is pretty deep though. I am using a set of 3.55 rear end gears. What do you plan to use? Billk

 

Hey flat-bill. Also got the .64, what do mean by pretty deep? Haven't decided on the rear end gears yet, will depend on what wheel/tire combo will fit. From there I'll start calculating. Considering the 5th gear ratio, I may go with a 3,73 or 4,11 gears. Any suggestions?

 

To figure your OD rear end ratio you multiply the OD (.64) times your ring and pinion ratio. For me the 3.55 and .64 works out to 2.272 in OD. With my tires this gives me about 1900 to 2050 rpm at cruise. You would not want much lower than that. With either the 3.73 or the 4.11 you will have no trouble with too low a cruise rpm. My car weighs 3670 and I have a 330 motor with 9:1 compression and a very mild cam. It will pull the OD at 40 mph on level ground. If you have a really lumpy cam and a heavy car with tall tires your motor might not like cruising at this low an rpm. However, if you hve a lighter car and shorter tires you might not like the 4.11's. Its all in how your combination works together and what you like. If you want a tire shreader and like to hear that motor spin on the highway, go for the stiffer gears. Good Luck. Billk

 

Thanks Bill! My car will be fairly heavy with tall tires. Used one of gear ratio calculators and it comes up with the following:

3,73 gears, .64 drive , 24 inch tires at 70 mph will give 2200 rpm
4,11 gears, .64 drive , 24 inch tires at 70 mph will give 2400 rpm

The Hemi will have about 500 hp (with still a mild cam)

I think the 4,11 is the way to go at this stage........

 

You should be fine with either of these ratios. With a mild cam you should certainly be at a good place on the torque curve. If you had a lumpy cam you might find you are down off the torque curve at cruise because of the fall off of low rpm torque. My preference is for cruising at a nice speed, not high performance racing. With your motor, weight and gears you should have a real puller. Billk

 

Thanks for the good advice Bill. You've been a great help, keep up the fantastic work!

 

So here's my blatant request for work that I know someone has put a bunch of time into.

Does anyone have CAD files of a Chrysler 392 bolt pattern, as well as a T56, which I imagine to be a standard Chevy pattern that they would be willing to share? A dimensioned drawing would be absolutely phenomenal.

Being in school gives me the time and opportunity to work with the tools necessary, not so much the cash to buy parts.
Russian

 

Which T-56? There are several. There were aftermarket models produced by Tremec that are essentially the same pattern as the F-body camaro type T-56's and then there are a couple other breeds that are Corvette applications and yet another that is a Viper application. There might even be another for Aston Martin applications.

I run the Tremec aftermarket behind my extended bell 331 block. I purchased it with an adapter plate that converts the T-56 pattern to a T5 pattern. For a 392 you would simply use a 392 to GM T-5 arrangement (adapter plate and bell housing) to bring the two together.

This doesn't answer your question though. My T-56 is mounted already, otherwise I could take a few measurements for you. I'll see if I can round up some pictures for you of how it's adapted to a standard (non-extended bell) motor.

 

You have a very good point sir.
Please do post pics, as all I found of your mated up to that extended bell you once were planning on using.
Now that I think about it, I have two options.

1. To run the stock auto 392 bell with hydraulic throwout, then adapt the bell to the T56. This would retain the factory starter and flywheel locations.

2. Run a factory T56 bellhousing adapted to the 392 pattern with factory clutch placement bust some sort of different starter configuration.

I'm pretty sure that the footprint on the front of the T56 is considerably larger than the original cast auto that came behind the 392, rendering that design less optimal.

Thoughts on either setup would be greatly appreciated!

 

T-56 transmissions are HUGE!

For both applications a hydraulic t-out bearing will work. For an extended bell, a hydraulic t-out is preferred unless you don't mind doing some surgery to the extended bell to use a mechanical t-out. Mechanical will work with a standard Hemi block and hell housing adapter.

Here is the T-56 behind my 331 extended bell...



Unfortunately, this is the best picture I have of it mounted behind a later 331 block. Would be a similar arrangement for a 392. The bellhousing is a Lakewood for GM applications.

 

So what are you running for the hydraulic T/O, McLeod?

So the order here is:
Aftermarket T56 + T56/T5 adapter + T5/SBC Scattershield + SBC/Short bell hemi adapter?

What are the clutch/flywheel/starter details?
Just trying to figure out the most cost effective way to do this... and I'm starting to like the idea of a scatter shield more and more.

 

I'll be using a McLeod hydraulic t-out bearing, and McLeod organic clutch and diaphragm style pressure plate. The adapter AND flywheel is from Wilcap.

You can buy the whole shubang can be had from Pat at wilcap for cheaper if you buy it through him as a package. He would probably sell you a McLeod bell housing as well as part of the package. The combination that you mention should get you setup. I bought my T-56 from RS Gear in New York. Prices were reasonable and shipping was reasonable. It came as a "T5 replacement" so it has the plate with it that you will need.

Hope that helps.

BTW... as an FYI. Hot Heads adapters are made by Wilcap. I bought one from Hot Heads once and I found that they didn't know as much about the application as they think they do. I will only by from Wilcap now. Wilcap's customer service ALONE is worth buying from them. And, he's a HAMBer.

 

Here is the back of the Early Hemi (not 51-53 331) as well as pre-62 A-series.


The auto trans bell could be adapted as noted, and you will retain the 57-58 starter, starter mounting plate and flywheel.
This thread may be helpful if you choose to make your own...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326725&page=2

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