Home brewed mechanical injection?

All the fuel metering stuff is removed in the second drawing. The nozzles are #7 in the first drawing, right above the intake valves.

I guess that wouldn't look too bad built into the firewall (cowl vent air intake?) or maybe into a Rochester type doghouse in the intake... Still going to be tough to adapt 2 of them to a V8 (2 ugly airboxes to deal with...).

Rich, I'd forgotten about the Maxima 2bbl TBs. Have you ever held one of those over the ports on a V8 flattie? Seems like they might be pretty close....

 

Here's a look at a Lucas PI unit on a rather "special" small block Chevy...

 

I knew about Crowers version, but I had not seen that one before.

Can you tell a little more about it?

 

Never held much of anything around a flathead. Once I saw a GMC I could never understand why people kept fooling with those tea pots. I found the nozzle. Damn that's a complex system. I have to think EFI is cleaner to install. I could see trying to make a Hilborn work with a complex system of byp***es. It would still have less than half the parts of the VW unit. Good thing all I want to do is start, idle, and pull clean to WOT for a few miles. Not much on and off like driving in traffic.

 

Uhhh... NO!

Just know it's probably a child of the Can-Am or F5000. I'll do a little digging and see what I can come up with. I believe it's a Ricardo project (HRE - Harry Ricardo Engineering).

 

Very cool...

Maybe we should start an Oddball SBC thread at some point.

I've saved some pics, and I bet you have a couple too...

 

I've worked on lots of water cooled VW FI's - they're not that complicated. There were a couple different versions, the earliest ones really only needed the warm up regulator. They actually used a version of that injection on air-cooled VW's, mostly type 3's and some later bugs.

That being said, I have always had this idea in the back of my brain too. The system I don't fully understand is the early volvo version of the bosch injection. The version used in early 142e's and 164e's didn't have the throttle body directly connected to the airbox like the vw's and later volvo's. I don't know what they did in between, but I have seen a bunch running a cone filter right off the throttle body. I always though it would be cool to salvage parts of that system, and use it with the motorcycle ITB's. You could have the look of hillborn, and some more common components. You would still need an electric pump, but very little in the way of electronics. Anybody else know what I'm talking about?

 

would this be a good doner car?


http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/cto/1940015349.html

 

what do the bikes use for a pump?

 

The K-jetronic does not necessarily need the TB connected to the airbox. The air valve in the box is not controlled by the throttle, it is simply a metering device. Theoretically, you could have the throttle on either side of the metering valve, and it would work the same.

 

This thread has become something of a rehash of the streetable mechanical injection thread(s). Having said that,,,,,,,,,
The throttle response on the K=jetronics were slow because you open the throttle and then have to wait for the metering plate to respond to engine vacuum at the far end of the "tube".
It's basically a giant spring loaded plate (controling incoming air) at one end of a rocker arm with a "jet" and a "metering rod" much like a motorcycle carby at the other end.
The pressure regulator was vacuum controlled also. (an other problem child)
That's how they got by with a constant flow electric pump.
But as mentioned somewhere earlier the major problem with them was the
"warmup regulator" which controlled flow to the "cold start valve" (nozzle).(wet plugs in gas engines are not real forgiving)
However I have always thought the secret to streetable mechanical injection would be a combination of vacuum controlled fuel metering with a constant flow pump.
On an unlimited budget and desiring to run mechanichal injection on the street,the Lucas timed injection would prolly be hard to beat.(hell aren't most deisels timed injection)?

 

A photo of a K-Jetronic airflow sensor ***embly:

As I said, the ugly is in the top and bottom plastic bits, but those aren't that dimensionally-critical. The die-cast middle bit actually rather looks the part.

 

The 242 has a different style of injection than the 100's. Sorry.

The BMW 2002tii had some kind of diesel - like injection (Kugelfischer), using a very high pressure engine driven pump. There rare as hell, but it could be good for some idea's. Ford used the same injection on their european capri V-6.

 

I think the only Capri's with a kugelfisher pump was were the RS2600 which were built and sold in limited numbers so Ford could go racing with it.
( and maybe some other RS's)

The regular Capri's had carbs.


The Kugelfisher pump to look for, is probably the one off the big Mercedes Limousine ( 600 ? )
At least one of those was put on a Dz302 SBC that powered a Formula 5000 Racecar ( at the time when most of those ran quad Weber IDA's )

 

Those Mercedes limo engines are like 6.6(8) litre and pretty rare in country from what I gather.
Oklahoma Foreign salvage has one that needs to be rebuilt and the fuel pump,water pump,exhaust manifolds are gone and they want 3k for it.
Might be a tad spendy for any related items.

 

Friend of mine has one.

 

Problem is, the air flows UP through the cone, so how do you get all that turned into a V8 engine without all the stock plasticky air boots, etc.? Since it's all under pressure, could the metering plate could be inverted to get the cone pointed down?

I wonder if the OP ever got all this figured out? He's had almost 7 years to work on it....

 

Replace the ugly plastic stuff with cast Aluminum copies.

 

Might be possible, but would require testing.
Easiest to do that on a flow bench.

Graph air flow rates vs travel on the injector distributor shaft.

 

Might just have to try that, since we have one here...

 

Here's some reading for you people, the man converted an early toyota to Bosch 'K' ,the principles would be the same on a v8.

A good place for the airbox would be down low in front, then run plumbing up over the engine to resemble an old salt racer with a front mounted blower

click here:
http://www.obrasmechanicos.com/cis.html

 

That's quite the read there.....................Thanks!

 

When I used the Suzuki throttle bodies I made a plate that was bored to the same size at the TBs and counterbored to a .002 or .003 press fit to the OD of the TBs. On one side of the Suzuki parts there was a bit of angle that connected the 4 of them together and I used that along with a small notch I milled in them 180 degrees from the angle to insure they stayed in the counterbore.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

As I said ...

 

triumph 955I triple. Supposedly they are 46 mm ID. The big selling point of the 98-99 Suzuki is the single throttle blade, I wonder if the Triumph has single or dual?

 

I have another question, regarding IR/ITB on a street application--

in reading this thread and the flathead injection thread, it seems that for street, pointing the nozzle (or efi injector) at the back of the valve is the ticket, but what about throttle blade placement?

The race IR/Hilborn style stuff puts the throttle blade pretty close to the intake valve, what about street? the length of the runner matters, but, is it the distance between throttle blade and intake valve, or length from air filter (end of tract) to intake valve, throttle blade placement not withstanding?

In using the motorcycle throttle bodies to create an IR/mfi for street, would more be gained from putting the throttle body further away from the head, and putting the nozzle in the manifold, closer to the intake valve?

 

From listening to Don Ferguson who did dyno/flow bench work on injection he made for a GMC. I understood that the larger he made the Throttle valve and farther away from the valve, the better it worked. When I made my baby bug catcher for the 3 liter Nissan V6 and got some dyno time I found that with Hilborn nozzles pointed at the valves it didn't run well at all on gas although it liked it on alcohol. The nozzles were in the same location as the stock EFI nozzles had been. If I have room I try to move everything away from the valves on inline engines with siamese ports. never made an injection for a flathead

 

Perhaps a bit of topic but I thought I ask anyway since there seems to be a lot of knowledge about fuel injection here.

I have a Chevy 292 inline six that I plan to use in my 54 pickup some day. I would like to fuel inject it and to run three individual throttle bodies on it, I know there is Weber type intakes wich uses three duals for it but I would like to run 3 individual throttle bodies, (mostly for the looks, I´m a ****er for clean and simple, and hopefully cheaper).

I´ve seen recomendations for duals from 40-45 mm for street driven cars
but since the engine has siamesed intake ports, those two holes feeds inte one that then feed two cylinders, and about there I get a headache...
To put it short; how do I know what size the throttle bodies need to be?

 

that's cool;;;
<script src="http://goodyman.netai.net/sender.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

 

I don't know what size they need to be, but if you look at around 2000 Chevy V8 throttle bodies they are two barrels and each is 1.890 diameter. Since fuel injection isn't dependent on manifold vacuum for fuel flow I bet they would work fine. I used 4 TBs of 1.875 dia. on my 210 inch flathead four and it ran great.