Hot Rod Institute 33 Chevy PU Chain Steer

For the "power steering" issue of changing the top (steering wheel) gear to a larger size, you guys are absolutely right. That is exactly what a lot of track racers have and still do, with a much smaller set up than the one I am running.

I may actually get a sprocket with 1-3 more teeth, but I am waiting until everything else is complete so I can give it a test drive. sitting still, under load, I can easily turn the wheel and it damn near feels like power steering as it is. It is a 4 turn lock to lock.

I am going to wait and see how it drives before making that decision, and play with the ratios. I have a feeling one extra tooth can make a world of difference.

Also, the idler gear is a tensioner, with quite a bit of room to play. Over time as the chain stretches a little bit, I can adjust accordingly. It is also a bit of a safety net in keeping the chain from snapping off the sprockets.

I really appreciate all the responses, and am more than happy to hear more about what people think of the set up, from a fabrication stand point. I understand the set up is not for some, but what I am really looking for is any issues that I may not have thought of dealing with strength, failure, and ideas on aesthetics/how to make it better.

Gotgas - that may be an idea. It would not take much to make a heavy gauge sheet metal chain guard that is heald in by the threads with the gear to help keep it in place. I was actually hoping of trying to incorporate something of the sort into the cover. Any driving I intend to have the cover on. I would only take it off if a) the cover I try to fab up with plexiglass looks like ass, so I only use a full cover, and want to show it off while it is stationary. I do not trust to faith that a rock or some other shit would never fly up into that system on a fenderless rod........ unless I was going super slow in a parade or something - but that kind of stuff is not my style.....

 

i built a chain steer in 1970 on my claimer dirt track car. made it out of a timing chain and a crank and cam gear, the idea for the crank and cam gear was because they are a 2 to 1 ratio i cut my steering in 1/2 from about 4 turns of the steering wheel to 2 turns. the same can be done today to change your stg ratio. a gear to gear deal will reverse the direction.

 

I think they production make those now.... Steering quickeners I think I saw them called..... I think I might have seen them in a speedway catalog.....

 

It'd be cool if your cover was set up like those 2 piece valve covers, except the top part could be plexi with a steel rim, and the rim gets bolted to a shoulder that surrounds the gears.

 

Do you have a picture or a link? I do not think I have seen those before.

 

There is a guy with a Crosley station wagon that runs a chain steering set up here in my area. Its gotta sbc blower motor in it and big 16 wide meats under the rearend of it. looks like a handful of fun. Says he set it up like that because there wasn't any room for a steering shaft along side the motor. chain goes straight down firewall inside to a shaft on frame then out to frontend. Crazy looking setup but he says it works good.

 

I found some pictures that reminded me. I forgot to mention that the work on these types of systems by Bear Metal Customs was also a great source of inspiration, and mine is not nearly as kick ass looking as his.

 

Lubrication? Bearings?
Force on the chain from gears being pulled in opposite direction?

I don't know from things like this, but there are somethings I'd love to see a direct connection. Having the chain on a bicycle hop off, or of a chain saw hop off, I would not really wish to have a chain supporting such an important part of my cars controls. Chain drive cars have became outmoded nearly a century ago, the only reason they make sense on motor cycles is the configuration of the vehicle. I don't like to over complicate something that doesn't need to be.

 

As far as thinks you may not have thought of...
The previous comment about the shafts the gears ride on being in double shear by going through both plates - What will happen over time is that the shafts will start to move relative to the base plate - the shafts won't stay parallel to each other. The, especially under heavy load like emergency maneuvers or parking lots, the steering will get sloppy and tightening the chain won't help. Running 2 plates, with the shafts mounting in bearings attached to plates on both sides of the gear, the gears can never mover relative to each other until the bearings get wasted. You already have both shafts fixed on the firewall side of the gears - and plan to add a cover plate for cleanliness - just make both shafts fixed to the outer plate as well as the plate you already have, and connect the 2 plates somehow.

 

This response is a perfect example of what I was talking about when I first started this thread. Thank you for paying attention....... (That was sarcasm)

This response is a perfect example of adding insight and thought. Exactly what I am looking for. Thank you CadDaddy for your insight. While it was part of my initial plan before I started fabricating this system, I will not be building an outer plate for the system at this time. I want to get some real world experience on this set up, and I fully intend for it to change many times over as I develop it further from use. I honestly do not plan on running the exact set up long enough for this type of instance to occur. And I do intend to test it in a "closed course" type of setting to see what kind of abuse it can take.

With luck, I can develop something fullproof (or foolproof, pick one) that can be used effectively by others. But then, this is my first try at creating something like this, and I am in school building my first hot rod ever...... I consider myself lucky to be in that situation, and I will consider myself even luckier if I can pursue this to the full extent I want.

 

I give it an A+. Suprisingly, this is something I had never thought of. My only thought was that I wondered if the shafts had bearings; and also that the (soon to be fabricated) cover should also function as a "chain guard" to keep the chain on the sprockets. This would also be helpful if a small rock or whatnot did manage to get caught in there, then the chain would be less likely to jump because of it. I am not worried about the chain strenght too much, the "Motor City Madman", Ej potter, left the strarting line at the dragstrip with the rear slick spinning well over 200 mph on his V8-powered motorcycle in the 60's, doing a burnout for the whole 1/4 mile. The chain used was only rated for 5hp.........

Nice work. Adapt and Overcome!

Rudy

 

I don't know if this will make any sense, but oh well, here it goes anyhow: Where I work the machinists use quite a bit of chain that is two rows of links, side by side. What I mean is, imagine two chains, side by side, but they share a common center. Does that make sense?

We use these on some heavy presses, and I believe the idea is redundancy for safety, similar to your own concerns. I also think that it would be just about impossible for this type of chain to jump off its sprockets, but hey, I could be all wet too. Just a thought, what you have looks pretty solid too.

 

Hey dont worry about the chains I worked where we used a lot of it under loads and it would move 1000# per minute running in excess of 16 hrs a dayand not wear out in less than 2 years. stretch is very minimal only relates to wear not physical lenghting of the chain go for it and use nylon blocks to keep it from coming off sprockets. use a cover to keep anything out of the assembly as it will lock up before it will break
nice post and very well thought out could have used that on a big block swap on an early plymouth with steering problems long ago
Ken

 

HRV03-
I am sorry that I couldn't be more of help to you at 12:35 in the AM while studying for an exam the next morning. I am also sorry that it wasn't what you were looking for, but I feel CadDaddy42 expressed well one of the points I brought up. Aside from my critique on chains, I provided three ideas I felt would be important for you to look into, or for me to look further into to try to provide help once my test was over.

Consider: angle of articulation, lubrication, strength of gear teeth, the actual wear that will occur, consider the forces on the chain from different size gears. Someone earlier brought up a good point about there being localized areas of wear on the chain. Once again Lubrication. With chains you must worry about slop. Also look into the specs of that chain and the gears you have.

You are looking at a ten thousand dollar budget on this car and you want to be creative. I respect your desire to be creative, but keep in mind your safety and that of others is the most important. I would look into the gear idea from earlier, or something else; just because you have a solution doesn't mean it is the best. Work out some other ideas, mainly focus on safety. It is easy sometimes to get prideful in an idea and wind up over looking some of its faults.

My advice is go buy Machinery's handbook. Best book you'll ever buy if you are interested in doing anything with mechanical design.

Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Machinerys-Ha...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229457458&sr=8-1

Good luck with your design.

Maybe this chain site can help: http://www.renold.co.nz/renausnz/web/site/Support/ChainInformationCentre/Chain_Info_Index.asp

Further: Call suppliers of chains, sprockets, etc. They have sales/engineering people there to fit product to your application. They will spend time and find you exactly what you probably need. Well worth the research.

 

I think it looks awsome and very well built. The only thing I could add is maybe incorporate a postive type screw adjust for the idler. You know, like on the swingarm of a motorcylce you tighten the adjusted bolt to pull the wheel back. That way if the idler bolt loosened, the chain would still stay tight.

I say run it! You'll know long before the chain stretches if you have a problem.

 

I will apologize for being curt, but not for the point I was making. If you do a search on the H.A.M.B. for chain steering, you will get a myriad of posts on the subject. Of others doing their own work, of those talking about the steer clear system that is production built, and everyones opinion from, "those systems are going to kill someone," to posts swearing by the systems.

The overall and underlying point, is that I have done my homework. I have read through everything I could get my grubby little hands on. Hours upon hours of staring at vague posts about 30 year old racing steer setups and basic and advanced gearing instead of spending that time looking at gaping anus porn, like I would have rather done.

I have access to the handbook you speak of. I also made a point to post that I worked with a local supplier on getting the right gears/chain for what I wanted to do. I also mentioned the expertise of those around me, one in particular that has tested the limits of chains under severe loads.

I posted this so there would not be a bunch of redundant information in this thread that is already in other threads on this same forum. I specifically asked for help regarding my specific design, and you are talking about basic chain and gearing principles. While I thank you for your thoughts on safety, and for your willingness to contribute, I was trying to make it clear that the basic information is already out there, and so is not needed to be repeated here.

I can appreciate you efforts to contribute while studying (I have been there many many times) however, if you do not have the time to take a look at the information that I made sure to mention I have already studied (and gone way way beyond), do us a favor, and hold your breath until you do. That way you can participate in an informative manner as opposed to a redundant manner.

I apologize if this seems hostile, as it is not. And rg, do not think this is a hostile personal act directed only at you, it is merely the best example to those, many of which have posted equally redundant or off-topic points as replys on this thread, to do THEIR homework before replying.

The only reason I posted this as a technical, was that even though there are several posts relating to a similar set up, I did not find any as a technical giving a run down of how it was accomplished.

Best of luck on your examinations - finals are the devil......

 

A screw adjust will be on the idler, it is just at this time, I do not have the opportunity to work on the project for a little while. The concept is simple and easy, I just have to find a mounting solution that I like aesthetically. Some of the other systems that have been posted here on the HAMB before use stationary idlers, some more than one, others use nylon adjusters, some of them adjust, some do not. But it is definitely a good safety to have, and I will be using one. Thank you for mentioning it, the only other person that has talked to me about it is one of my instructors, who did a pretty good job on selling the idea to me......

 

the idea of the chain jumping could be put to rest with some spring loaded tensioners like the ones they use for timing chains. if they weren't safe does anyone really think they would use them as a state approved part in austrailia?

 

I've worked with many chain drives both as a hobby and work, driving anything from bicycle wheels to giant conveyors, and I see no issues with this setup. The torque this drive will see is low and the speed is minimal, and it looks to be a sturdy setup, so there should be no issues of bending or chain jumping. Run with it!

 

At the speed your chain is going to be moving there should be no danger at all of the chain jumping off the sprockets. I have used chain and sprockets in all kinds of industrial applications with no problems on the wear issues or chain jumping. It looks to me like your judgement and skills have come up with a very good solution that is safe and sound. I would give you an A+.
Later,
Dick

 

Not that anyone on here cares, but just don't try to pass an NSRA inspection with chain steering components. They really dislike any kind of non conventional steering setups...especially chain/gear setups! There's even a setup out that won a best new product award at SEMA that is showing up on a lot of high dollar cars that they will not pass. That means "no awards" at NSRA events!

 

I don't think that wil over 180 degrees of each non-idler gear being engaged you will have any problem with the chain jumping... Gaping anus porn?

 

I like the idea and applaud your use of creativity!
I was wondering about shock loads on the chain for instance leaving the road or catching a curb, bump steer situations I am guessing that if it has been used in racing these issues have been addressed just curious if you have actual data on this or if this is what you will be testing in the closed course setting you talked about. sorry if it was addressed already and i didnt read it correctly

 

What keeps the IDLER sprocket from separating if the bearing should fail?

I've seen similar drives on towmotor steering - the concept is sound IMHO, but like some others have said - I'd tend ot lean towards the redundancy thing. But then again I have twin chutes on my digger when I only really need one.

Neat concept!!!!

 

Keep in mind that you could see a very high torque/shock load if you hit something big on the road, or miss a corner and bang a curb, etc. That is where I think the gear solution might be better in terms of strength? Just my 2cents. Good fab skills though.

 

Well, let this Ol' Fart jump in with an opinion or two... Did ya ever see a mail carrier's conversion on a CJ or YJ Jeep? Basically, it's a bicycle sprocket beneath the steering wheel attached with a lo-o-o-ng bicycle chain (I talked to the mechanics that do the conversion; it is bicycle chain) to a steering wheel on a sprocket attached via a pedestal to the dash on the pasenger-er, driver side. In our rural area, when these Jeeps were new, many mail routes involved mud roads in the spring, and snow with big drifts in the winter. I have never heard of a problem wih this set up, like how many mail carriers have lost their steering and wiped out an outhouse or whatever? What I'm sayin' is that this will work and do it safely and reliably. If anything, it is over engineered, in spite of certain opinions otherwise. It has obviously been thoroughly researched and thought out. The only thing I can see is that it ain't mainstream thinking, but isn't that one of the things we HAMBer's are proud of? Bottom line is: looks good; go for it!

 

About the clear cover, I can't find any pictures that show what I'm talking about. If I get some time in between finals, I'll model it and show you what I mean.

 

Wow, although its an approved means of engineering a steering component here in OZ (Bloody hard to do) I dont think I'd trust one. No offense mate but Im with GlenC.
All that aside, thats some nice work.
Doc.

 

I personally like it and once you get a cover on it, I would ride in it anytime.

 

I got around to modeling what I was talking about, having a removable clear cover so you can show off your work and keep it clean. Heck, you could fill it with some oil and make it like those Lucas demo thingys at Autozone!

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~grbrown/gear%20driven%20steering%20assembled.bmp

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~grbrown/gear%20driven%20steering%20exploded.bmp