How to hit 200 at Bonneville?

I think I have mentioned here before that after my RPU is complete I would like to replicate, or build a close copy of, the Stu Hilborn streamliner. It would be a long-term project that I can enjoy after thrashing on the RPU for a couple of years.

Anyway, running at Bonneville has long been a goal of mine and most anyone who wants to run at Bonneville wants to hit 200 (at first ).

I know this is tech week and I while I am not contributing, others could. Considering Bonneville’s rules and cl***es (of which I have no knowledge), what would it take to hit 200 mph in something similar to the Hilborn streamliner?

I’d prefer a SBC engine for its simple power. I would like the car to resemble the Hilborn car as much as possible but imagine it would have to be beefed up a bit to accommodate a full cage. Tall gears are obvious. Big inches? Induction? Trans? Suspension (the Hilborn car was a “rigid”)?

Some rough looking cars were hitting 140 and 150 in the 1950's. Even though another 50 mph after hitting 150 is asking a lot, it seems like 200 should be very attainable. Just something to think about……

Thanks, JH

 

How are you going to construct the body? Making wooden templates and laying the steal over it? Well any way, good idea..

Good luck.

steve

 

I was thinking about a plywood "spine" that followed the side profile and "ribs" every foot or so from front to rear. Draw the thing out on graph paper then duplicate to life size. This would require some metal working skills and a homemade English wheel.

The other option is to keep my eyes open for any body parts that could be spliced and diced and welded back together to fit my needs. Kinda like the Deuce and Whippet grille shells some HAMBers have found "hidden" in '53 GMC grille surrounds and '48 Ford hoods. A wire frame similar to the wooden "rib cage" described above would probably be helpful here.

One way or the other, making a body isn't a major worry for me. I am a much better body man than mechanic. Going fast is my challenge.

JH

 

Have you checked out the new “Jalopy Journal”? There’s a good article about ol’ Stu and that car. There’s an interesting pic with the body off – really narrow frame. Stu recants how he bought the thing for $75 and was loading it on a trailer – right at that moment he heard Pearl Harbor was being bombed.

Regarding engines – different size engines are going to put you in different cl***es with their ***ociated rules.

 

I've not raced at Bonnie, but many of my friends have. They tell me the same thing over and over - add weight to go faster. Weight helps stabilize the car at speed, and if you're not stable you won't go fast. Stability is key to going past 200, and in a spindly streamliner I'd recommend filling the belly with lead.

Scotch~!

 

I expect the biggest factor affecting the look of your finished car, and therefor how close you can get to the Hilborn car, is the current safety rules.

You can run anything for time, cl*** is not an issue. Safety is an issue though and to get on the track you'll have to get by that hurdle first.

Starting with a SCTA rule book you could design and build a ch***is/cage with that car in mind. Judging by the recent magazine pictures there was barely shoulder room in the car let alone room for a cage, so you'd likely end up somewhat wider.

How uncomfortable do you want to be at 200?

If the guys that run drop tanks can still fit inside with current safety equipment, then a design like that one has to be do-able.

mike

 

Thats another thing... How Big are ya... If you my size, i wouldnt even fit my leg in there..

lmao
steve-

 

I think the whole car would have to be scaled up to accept a SBC.Didn't the original run a V8-60?
It would probably be easier to fit an inline motor (4,or 6)into the narrow,tall.bodywork.
Or a couple bike motors.Maybe more.


Based on my limited Bonneville knowledge,it would run in the Lakester cl***.

 

[ QUOTE ]
How uncomfortable do you want to be at 200?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I'll be uncomfortable at 200 no matter what I drive. I did have a 1996 Impala that was good for 160 after a little tuning a few years back. It was like flying low in a Lazy-Boy recliner. Loved that thing....

I saw the article in TRJ. Awesome. The car was very narrow but at 170 lbs and 6 feet tall I think I could tough it out for a quick p***.

SCTA rules would naturally have to be considered and the car might have to be constructed on a slightly larger scale but like Mike mentioned, if a belly tank can hold all the necessary safety equipment, a little 'liner would probably come close also.

The weight issue makes some sense. Wonder what kind of weight would be necessary to keep it stable at 200? My new Impala was a big, heavy car and was stable at speed. No way you could pack that much weight into a little 'liner though.

Anyway, back to the "tech" of this..... Any thoughts on engine, trans, suspension, and gearing details?

Thanks, JH

 

There are speed calcualtors online to help ya...

Here's one:

http://www.free-online-calculator.com/recreation_calculators/car_calculators/road_speed_calculator/road_speed_calculator.shtml

I did a search for "speed gearing calculator" on Yahoo and found this and many others. Surely, one of them will suit your needs - I hope!

Good Luck!

Scotch~!

 

An approximation of the Hilborn car would most likely fall into a lakester cl***. Guys that know tell me that a hiboy roadster takes just about 600 hp to go 200. The lakester, being somewhat smaller of frontal area, might take somewhat less. But it still takes a stout motor to get an open wheeled car to 200 mph. And the records in these cl***es are outta sight.

 

hey guys,

I have been thinking about the bonne thing lately and would like to pose a few questions/comments about things that have come to mind.

The speed calculator seems like a neat tool, but is there a formula which also factors in HP and aerodynamic drag Cd?

***umption: for a given amount of HP, the higher RPM you can spin the motor, the higher the potential speed???

Aerodynamics would have a HUGE effect on drag coefficient and potential speed, no?

Wouldn't you rather have "weight" added by way of aerodynamic downforce and not permanent m*** that needs more HP to initially accelerate?

I'm really curious about some of these things.

thanks all

phil

 

First things first:
Get a rulebook at http://www.scta-bni.org/

You probably won't set a cl*** record, but you can have a lot of fun trying!

 

hey duece

thanks for the site address..

later

phil

 

Aerodynamic downforce is a horse power trade off. It boils down to the question "Would you rather use your power to go fast or stick your car to the ground?"

I agree with the 600hp vs highboy statement, that's aproximately where our car is.

Aero design is best applied for stability and avoiding lift as opposed to down force.

Open wheel laksters are quick too.
My favorite was Seth Hammond's

It's a D (261 thru 305ci) Blown Fuel Lakester and when he wrecked in October was traveling at 314 MPH

 

When Stu ran the car it had a 21 stud. On the subject of aerodynamic downforce as opposed to "regular old" weight, aerodynamic downforce induces drag. Not particularly helpful. At Speedweek this year, we ran 228 four times with a P-38 Belly Tank powered by a 260 inch small block Chevy. Record is 231. Last year (2002) we ran 245 with 305 inches. Hope this helps. While we're talking about it, the Warth/Hilborn car is being replicated. Should know more soon. Wayno

 

Mike, we were writing at the same time. I saw Seth Hammond last Saturday night at the SCTA awards banquet and he is in fine shape. Lucky man. Also had the honor of shaking Al Teagues hand. I'm not worthy. Wayno

 

Wayne,
That's great to hear good news about Seth. It also speaks volumes for safety/tech.
mike

There's a note about Special Construction Vehicles on the SCTA web site that says alot about lakesters

SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION CATEGORY
"This category is the pinnacle of the straightaway racer’s art. It contains two groups, the unlimited Streamliners and open wheeled Lakesters, running both blown and unblown, gas or fuel engines. These are all-out straightaway vehicles with non-stock engine blocks allowed. Innovation is unlimited. Modified production bodies are forbidden."

 

It should be possible to use the air going under the car(ground effects)
to compensate for lift generated by air flowing over the top of the car.

But it would have to be done without increasing drag.

Big wings,like F1,would kill top speed.

 

A thought.
The Hilborn car has a nice aero shape going for it, in that it is so thin that it will primarily split the air on it's verticle axis. Keeping it symetrical side to side so that it doesn't pull one way or another is probably more important than lift concerns.

 

Thanks guys. I'll get a rule book and start studying.

Elmo Rodge, I'd love some details on your car and its drivetrain. You are a little faster than I want to be but it sounds like you have crammed all the necessary and required parts into a tight space.

This wouldn't be about records for me. I just want to go fast on the salt.

Thanks, JH

 

By the way, your question about engine rpm vs speed:

The primary factors that determine a vehicles top speed are horsepower and drag. If the vehicle is not properly geared, it will not be able to actually attain its theoretical top speed. When a car is designed for top speed, it has to be set up to make its peak horsepower at the top speed, and have enough excess power at every speed less than the max to continue accelerating. Just gearing a car taller will not make it go faster unless it has enough power to pull high gear to the power peak.

It is actually a lot like designing an airplane. Thrust and drag. Your horsepower makes the thrust, and moving the vehicle makes the drag. Of course, (also like an aircraft) don't forget your stability concerns......

 

Wayno crews on this tank


I figure they must have one hell of a shoe horn.

mike

 

One thing about big wings, like F1, is if you spin, when you go backwards it will lift the car, that happenned to some guys from sweden last year, they managed to work it out, but it could have gone bad...

 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys. I'll get a rule book and start studying.

This wouldn't be about records for me. I just want to go fast on the salt.
Thanks, JH

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind, the rule book is always open to the TECH crew interpretation. When in doubt; ASK them BEFORE you arrive at the "salt." The BNI / SCTA web site has a "QUESTIONS ?" provision.

After you have been at the "salt"; you will get the BUG! Our B/STR is just short of getting past the 200 MPH mark (196+) and we WILL be there!! (again and again and....)

Good luck, and hope to see you there!!
Also part of "North of '49" crew. (with Mike)

 

Remember you're talking about going way faster than the take off speed of most airplanes and they have a lot of engineers to help them. Seths lakester was real stable at 305-his wife drove it;flew at 315!
Get the rule book!

 

Food for thought... the old l88 vette race cars tached out at 217 on mulsanne straight if I remember correctly!

In my mind, anything can be built to go fast. But in doing so you have to test it at all speeds and build out the weakness's. Just like drag racing you can have insane power but if you cant put it to the ground your screwed. In this case your screwed if you cant keep it on the ground!

Start by defining the car type you want to run, engine size and what all modifications your willing to add and your price range. Then adjust the speed your willing to go from there!

Basics... If it wobbles at the front at 80-90 but quiets back down after 110 you might want to look at the suspension cause evidently your downforce at 110 fixes your suspension problems.

Then... dont just think about the aerodynamics of the top half of the car. You need to think about the bottom side too! Belly pans and sheetmetal front spoilers... if the car is low, and the body cuts a small chunk of the air to start, a spoiler up front that brings it clost to the dirt works! Again, check out the can-am series vettes of the 70's! Check out the daytona style front ends on em...

Fast cars, can over power the aerodynmaics of the body its self... but what they cannot do with power is keep it stuck!

 

Heres one of the cars... http://www.rickcarey.com/Catalog%20Descriptions/Christie's%20L88%20Le%20Mans%20Corvette.htm

 

Whatever you do DON'T RUN WIRE WHEELS HRP