Technical How to set timing without harmonic balancer?

Hey guys, My dad and I just picked up a 64 C10 longbed with a 283 and a powerglide. Its our first project together and we are going to try and hustle so we can drive it to the Roundup this year. My son (4) is excited to turn a wrench so 3 generations will be putting in work on it.

The motor starts and idles fine but as soon as it goes into gear it dies. After a little research it looks to be either timing or a vacuum issue. The PO did recently change the distributor but if the timing is off its not by much. I just noticed that the motor doesnt have a Harmonic Balancer, so I wanted to know what the procedure is for setting timing without a reference point on the rotating ***y?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

What's turning your Fan belt, cooling system?

 

A 64 283 should have some sort of harmonic balancer, maybe not a big one like a 350 4 bolt main but there should be one there behind the pulley. Some of those early engines and I am not sure if that is one had a notch in the back edge of the pulley as the timing mark. The pulley was riveted to the hub on those.

In this old thread there are some photos of different 283 dampers and timing marks including one Squirrel posted of the notched pulley.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/283-harmonic-balancer-needed.950188/

 

It probably fell off, the rubber gave out. Best to put one back on it!

To answer your question, determine tdc with a piston stop. Make a pointer to point to that. Then determine the diameter of the part you are marking. Multiply that by 3.1417 then divide that by 36 take that measurement and mark that distance from Tdc, that will give you 10 degrees.




Bones

 

Must be using an electric fan!

 

Here's what a Crusty Old stock one looks like.

 

The outside ring may have come off but if it did the previous owner would have had to unbolt the pulley to take it off if he didn't pull it off with a hub puller while trying to pull the damper off. I have seen the end results of that a couple of times when someone tried to use a three finger gear puller to pull a Chevy damper and then showed up with the two pieces asking how to fix it.

It should look like the one Pist-N-Broke posted in post 7 if my memory serves right.

 

Add to it the fact most 283 Crankshafts are not threaded for a center bolt people would beat the damper on after changing a timing chain and knock off the outter ring.

 

And the fact that you couldn't keep oil in it.

 

I appreciate the help. I read that early 283's were internally balanced but I guess that ended in 62. We just picked the truck up on Saturday so I will absolutely have more questions. Hopefully the stalling issue is just an old vacuum hose or carb mount gasket.

 

you might be confused about what a harmonic damper really is, and what it does. It is not a "balancer" at all, it's a damper. It damps the torsional vibrations in the crankshaft. A short stroke engine like a 283 with a steel crank needs very little damping, so the damper was small, and early ones didn't even have a cast outer ring--it was just a stamped steel plate, and held to the hub with rivets, and rubber between the two parts.

The 283, as well as all non-400 small blocks up to 1985, were internally balanced. The 86 and later ones had a balance weight on the flywheel, because the one piece seal made it so they could not add the weight needed on the longer stroke engines, to the flywheel flange on the crankshaft. The 400 small blocks all had a balance weight on both the damper and the flywheel.

If you post a picture of the lower pulley setup, we might be able to identify what parts are on the engine.

 

I am thinking it has just the early steel pulley. I am not sure if they had timing marks, like the larger 350 style has? Maybe he is asking how do you time it if there are no timing marks.

 

Ya, I really just want to know how to time it without marks. I believe it is like the one in the pic that Pist-n-Broke posted. The car is at my dad's house so I can get a pic in a day or 2.

I will try the method Boneyard51 put up to find degrees past tdc. I'll be replacing the garbage dist and coil the PO installed so I'll get some practice soon!

 

Uh, that should degrees “before” top dead center, not past. It won’t hardly run near tdc, certainly not past tdc. If you don’t want to do all that math, just find tdc and time it about 1/2 to 3/4 inch before that, you’ll be in the ball park and it should run.






Bones

 

Got it. I guess i used p***ed in the wrong way there. I intend to Advance the timing to about 12deg to start

 

The first thing I would do is find TDC. Take about 2 feet of 1/4 inch diameter rope and stuff MOST of it in the #1 cylinder. You can use a screw driver to make sure the piston isn't at the top of the bore first, and of course tie off one end of the rope. Then turn the engine over by hand, removing spark plugs will help, in both directions until the rope stops the movement. Mark the balancer where the timing tab shows "0" degrees. Use a measuring tape to find the distance between the two lines. Half the distance will be TDC.

If you can beg/borrow/steal an adjustable timing light, you will be able to set the timing as you wish.

 

I can garuntee you that if there is no damper. It has a crank hub. I have had 283 up through 67 that have no damper and just a crank hub. 283 cranks are not drilled for a damper bolt. The hub is what the pulled bolts too. There is one on the 283 in my 39 right now. It will have a mark on it. Just clean it up with a wire brush.and you can find the mark

 

Step one---drive to the nearest NAPA store.
Step two---order stock replacement balancer.
Step three---when NAPA calls, return to NAPA and PAY FOR balancer.
Step four---install said balancer.
When done then you can ask us more questions that will result in positive answers.

 

Edit
I've heard of the earlier engines not having a balancer but in all my years being a small block Chevy guy I can honestly say I have never seen one personally.
I guess I got ahead of myself and should have asked the OP if there is a timing tab on the timing cover.

 

No crank hub here but this is what the timing tab for a crank hub looks. Its much closer to the crank. You’d have to cut it off to fit even the smallest damper

 

You have to sort out you balancer,but heres how I time engines that have a slipped balancer outer ring.Fire the engine up,and advance the distributor until its running at a higher idle.When it starts to sound bad...back up to where it sounded best.Turn off the engine.Restart it.If it starts easy your good.If it cranks too slow its too advanced,and you have to retard the distributor until it does crank normal.Not much science to it,but it works.

 

What irishsteve said. You can fine tune it (probably not the best description here) by driving and listening for pinging under load, retard, repeat. Sort of like hair shampoo.

 

It's magicians sleight of hand here.

Earlier 283 balancers looked like this


early 283's have this type.


I have this 1965 Impala 283 in storage with this type [excuse the poor photography] seen on the RH side of the photo.
It looks like it doesn't have a balancer


To the OP ..............a wire brush is your friend. There will be a notch or line somewhere.

 

I have an early 283 with a small hub. Like Nailhead Jason, mine has a timing mark similar to the one pictured below...



I haven't seen it for a while (stored out of reach and sight) but I'm sure it's OEM. It has not been modified or damaged, three threaded holes for a pulley.

.

 

Oh come on Squirrel,,,,you too !
LoL

Tommy

 

I modified a spark plug base after removing all the porcelyn (watch your eyes) by welding in a male air hose fitting. Put a length of CLEAR tubing on the air fitting, screw ***'y into #1 plug hole. Turn crank by hand, hold finger over end of tubing to feel when pressure starts to build. Now put tubing into a container of water and watch the bubbles. As soon as the bubles stop and water starts to go in tube, STOP. You've found TDC. Easier with valve covers removed so you can see when intake closes and compression starts.

 

Lot's of good advice here, but please, forget the one that says to stuff a rope int he cylinder. There are actual tools known as a piston stop, they aren't expensive. They screw into the spark plug hole and they will positively stop the piston travel before it reaches TDC. The 2nd part of that was right, rotate the crank by hand (this is easier if you pull all the spark plugs) until the piston contacts the piston stop, then put a mark on the pulley/dampner. Now turn the crank the opposite direction all the way around until it makes contact with the piston stop again, and then put a mark on the pulley again. Now measure the distance between the 2 marks, and half way between them is TDC. Now, once you have TDC located you can purchase a timing tape for the diameter of the pulley and apply it to the pulley and you will have the pulley marked with all the degrees you need to set the timing.

 

Back to the OP’s original problem being diagnosed as a vacuum leak or timing. You stated it had the distributor changed out. Does it have the gasket between the dizzy and manifold?

 

Thanks for all the replies guys. I understand how to set timing and find TDC. This is my first Chevy, and after lots of googling I couldn't find an answer that wasn't "install harmonic balancer". I appreciate the unbelievable amount of instant knowledge you guys have and your willingness to share it.

There is a gasket at the distributor and it looks to be installed correctly. When I get over there in the next few days I'll use the old starter fluid trick to find any vacuum leaks, but I'm guessing it's the carb mount gasket as it looks old and over torqued

 

Other's have mentioned timing the engine by ear, and that is an old skool way to do it that still works on a simple engine, and is a great way to develop your ear for your engine.

Another way to do this that is a little more technical, but not too bad, is to attach a vacuum gauge, and to adjust the timing for the highest vacuum reading possible, then back it off a slight amount, so there is just a slight drop in vacuum. That should give you a very close to perfect timing. Irish Steve had a good tip, turn it off and try restarting it, if it turns over easily your good. If it cranks very slowly it indicates timing is too far advanced.

Once you get the timing set, then to address the stalling issue fine tune the carb idle and air/fuel mixture. I'll take a guess that it's got a Rochester 2G two barrel on it, am I right? In any case set the idle speed where you want it, probably ~800 rpm, make this your base speed for now. The air/fuel mixture screws are in the front of the carb on the baseplate, there are 2 of them. Pick 1 and adjust it in/out to achieve the highest idle speed, then reset the idle speed to the base speed, then turn the same mixture screw IN (clockwise) until the rpms drop about 20 rpms. Then reset the idle speed back to the base speed once again. Now repeat this process on the other air/fuel mixture screw. When you get done, do them both again. I know it's tedious, but it's a good exercise and doing the whole thing step by step a couple of times will get you the best quality idle speed, and smooth transition from idle to acceleration. I think this is an area where a lot of guys just don't spend enough time. There is a lot to gain from spending some quality time with this. And this is a good time of year to do it. It gets hot standing over an engine twisting mixture and idle screws in the summer. (Note: if you don't have a tachometer for tuning an engine, you can do the above using a vacuum gauge, adjust the mixture screws for highest vacuum reading, then screw them In for a slight drop in vacuum, or about 20 rpms by ear). While you're doing this, pay attention to the sound of the engine and the smoothness of the idle. When you get it dialed in it should be noticeably smoother. One small trick for a visual aid is to place you hand on the fender or the front of the car and stick you 1st finger straight out and watch how it vibrates due to the vibration of the engine. As you get it dialed in you should be able to see it being much smoother.

If the engine still stalls when you drop it into gear, adjust the idle speed up in small increments until the engine idles smoothly in gear.