PERSONALLY, I like this reason best of all. But,I also like the Beatles music. Maybe the last two members of the "WHO" and the last two Beatles should get together and become "Who's the Beatles?"
Zman, I didn't start the OT subject and I don't have a problem with the cut off date. Personally I think it should be pushed back to pre-55 but thats just my opinion. I was asking a question that I think some guys on here would know because they were around when it happened AND because they are hot rodders and NOT muscle car guys so I was hoping for some un-biased opinions. The problem with other forums Mopar, Ford, GM only forums is thay all slant toward what their site is for. I Have always been a Mopar guy, thats what I grew up with and thats what I know so I stick to it. I have just never gotten a good answer to this question. I'm not questioning the 64 cutoff year. I'm questioning the why the GTO was the "first" muscle car? Was it simply the first one to be mass produced so, in the public eye, it was the first one?
"Why was the 1964 GTO considered the first muscle car?' Here's what I have heard and observed through the years: GM had a engine size restriction on their mid and small size cars. 400 cu in was the max. Any engine larger had to go in the full size bodies. Pontiac wanted to have the best, fastest stock mid size car, so they went close to the limit with a 389 that was below the 400 limit set by GM management. They then increased the bore to make it a 400 without GM managements approval and stuck it in a Tempest. When management found out, it was too late, the cars were already on the streets and selling like hotcakes. The media was in GM's pocket back then [still are, according to some people], and hyped the "muscle" that the cars were making. Everybody else followed Pontiac's lead, stuffing larger and larger engines into smaller cars. You could walk into any dealer and buy them, didn't have to special order a "performance package" or "race package" that cost more the base car. Sure there were 409 Chevy Biscaynes, 413 and 426 Belvedeers and 406 and 427 Galaxies before 1964, but they were full size cars, not the mid size ones. And they weren't as common on the dealers lots either. They were performance or musclecars in their own right, but the small body large engine cars are the ones that Joe Blow could buy, and the media covered them up. This may not be 100% accurate, but is what i remember hearing and reading through the years.....
I think the word 'musclecar' was actually coined by someone at one of the car magazines, probably in 1966 or so (I recall a discussion here some time ago about when it first appeared, you could probably find it with a search.) Prior to that they were called other things, supercars or hot cars or who knows what. It's really just an arbitrary term. I think the early 1960s Mopars are more in the same category with Catalinas, Belairs, or Ford Custom 500s that were the lightest version of each manufacturer's full size car equipped with big engines. Then, the whole intermediate body thing came along, with all the GM A body cars and the Fairlane and Satellite. As far as that goes, some people say the 1950s Rambler Rebel was a muscle car, and before that there was the Hudson Jet - you could even argue that the 1930s Buick Century fit the definition as well. What was different in the 1960s is that after the GTO was introduced, every other manufacturer had a similar car on the market within the next year or two.
I too have a few questions. 1 is the cut off of 1964 for just cars or are parts , aftermarket and factory included? Some car shows have a cut off on rims, engine chrome or aluminum, straight axles, independent suspensions that you can or can't see, it's kind of confusing. I understand the Boyd cars and new wave streetrods but some classified as a streetrod to me have hotrod blood lines and they don't make it in the Traditional scene. I guess because I was born in 1964 and have been around hotrods, street rods my whole life I get confused on all the fences put up about cars that are built by an individual and the parts he likes.
We can argue about this for all eternity, but nobody is going to be swayed on their opinion, and the board will still have a cutoff. It is what it is. Just leave it alone and go on about your day. Post pics of your 2007 make/model car if you like. NOBODY as a member on this board can do anything about it. Ryan can, and the Moderators can, and if they feel it is not appropriate for this board they will delete it. Asking OUR permission is just a waste of time.
BamaMarv Not that this actually adds anything to the discussion but from what I have read the GTO package was an export package and not an optional package. The big pontiac engine at the time was the 389 and the powers to be didn't want them in a small car. Some engineers that wanted to get around the big guys billed it as an export package and that was acceptable to the decission makers. The reason I believe that it was acceptable was that many manufacturers had export packages prior to that. The Hudson hornet with the twin H is an example that comes to mind. Twin carbs and split exahust from the hudson factory was not an option ment for sales in the united states but some of them made it to the dealerships anyway. The bottom line is that way back when we were not a kinder gentler HAMB we hashed it out and '64 became the cut off date. Some things are originally understood by the masses, then a new set of masses comes along with different ideas that are just not acceptable and a rule has to be set in place.
The term Bellflower is mainly from cars that hung out at the Clock Drive in of Bellflower, CA. The exhaust tips were on most of these cars and most of them were painted by Larry Watson. The term then traveled across the country. The Clock poster painted by Steve Stanford shows most of these cars and has been reprinted. This poster is from the original painting by Steve Stanford. All of this is from the Larry Watson estate. The poster is available below so that you can see what it looked like.
Porknbeaner, you may be right on the export thing. And I may have the max size on the engine wrong, it might have been less than 400 cu in, it's been a while since I read that. Nothing wrong with setting a time limit. If there were no limits, some yo yo would be asking questions about his Honda Civic! True, if you weren't here in the beginning, and I for sure wasn't, you can't know the reasons for some things unless you ask. The original poster asked why, so now everybody that has come in late knows, 1964, last year for the HAMB, first year for Mustangs and factory musclecars. If it's 64 or earlier, it's here, if it's later, it's elsewhere! Now we resume regular programming....
I'm among the new members. I am sure this has also been hashed around a lot. Maybe right in this thread but I'm getting dizzy rereading it. Using the last post here, I understand about the year of any vehicle after 1964 is NOT welcome. Next stupid question, which is most likely a repeat. Does that include any and all parts used on a car 1964 and earlier? A simple question from a simple minded old fart. Just want to know all of the rules without searching anymore. A simple YES or NO will do. 1964, last year for the HAMB, first year for Mustangs and factory musclecars. If it's 64 or earlier, it's here, if it's later, it's elsewhere!
I don't know for sure when the 400 or the 421 came about. You are correct about the civic thing for damned sure, even back when I first came on here at least once a month someone would post some low dollar import or another flat black with red wheels. You can only imagine what ensued after that. It was never pretty.
I have a 1932 ford 3 window fiberglass car. I always loved the Doyle 1932 ford 3 window and that was part of my inspiration for my build. I built this car in 1995 and it has been in 10 magazines. Gerry Burger from Rodders Digest called it so Traditional back in 1996 but I am afraid that by todays standards it wouldn't make the traditional list. I have a tci independent front suspension and a lacarr steering wheel. The car also has rubber running boards and 1932 head lights and a chrome windshield frame with american tork thrust d's and scallops. Some Traditional car shows have rules for entrance Tork trust D's are from 1965 not allowed independent front suspensions allowed if not seen, no billet if seen. What is and what isn't Traditional?
Hallrods, while your car sounds very nice, I would say there is plenty that makes it not traditional. What is traditional is pretty easy in my eyes. The site says Pre 64 hot rods and customs so that means a car built using parts available before 1964. So simply put, would your car have had the same parts in 1964? If the answer is no then it's not traditional in the way this site defines it. It is a nice car and well built I'm sure but not a traditional hot rod. Now it gets fuzzy because some people can't live without mustang 2's and airbags and power steering, but in a fat rendered car it's all hidden. So some of these cars look very traditional in outward appearance so they are let slide in the context of this site.
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