Just some random thoughts from a guy who's done this crap for 40 years. 180 out is not the problem since you had it running. Distributors don't jump up out of an engine and fall back into place all by themselves. Also I see alot of guys start messing with stuff like checking firing order. It ran ! Plug wires don't fall off and then jump back on but in the wrong place. Starting fluid is for diesels. A light splash of gas down the carb won't hurt anything. Filling the bowl through the vent tube is better if you suspect a bad fuel pump. Buttt.. the tach acting funny leans me towards the MSD box being the problem. Do you have an old HEI distributor you can drop in and run a hotwire to for diagnostic purposes ? Also setting the timing mark on zero and pointing the distributor at #1 plugwire is wrong. If you set the timing at around 8-12 degrees before TDC and point the rotor to #1 it will be alot closer to where it almost has to run if you're getting spark & fuel. Put in NEW plugs if you haven't already. I have seen brand new plugs that were gas soaked never fire again even after you dry them off. Don't know why but it happens. Good luck with it. My bet is that you have an issue with the MSD box.
I once rebuilt an engine, and wasn't careful with the distributor (left it outside) it got wet, lost its lube and broke after a 100 miles or so. It busted the mount way down in the block, when it snapped the dizzy shaft(351 Cleveland). Obviously, this did not happen to you, but could something have happened to the distributor that would cause it to be off by 20,30, or whatever? This seems like a major timing malfunction to me.....just my two cents. Kelvin
Okay, please hear me out on this. Are you running a conventional HEI coil mounted on top of the distributer cap? It might be a marginal or bad coil. Let me explain. I had a similar issue with an HEI. I had driven my truck 80 miles. Pulled into my girlfriends driveway and put the truck in park and idled for 5 minutes. I put the truck in reverse and the engine died. I messed with it and was able to get it to run by retarding the timing. I decided to replace the coil and that fixed it. So the coil was able to deliver a spark under certain conditions. I think this might be what you are seeing.
Wouldn't you want your initial timing set to about 12* advanced rather than 0? Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Shane, Your scenario has occurred to me twice. The engine fired up for break-in run-up. In both cases revved up in the 2000 range for fifteen to twenty minutes. When I started in to adjusting the engines to idle and reefing the tuning is when things started going to hell. The first one was a Jimmy 302 straight six. Everything was brand new. It started sound "doggy", then quit, I could start it, it would quit, then it wouldn't start. Try and try would not start. Turned out that the valves were sticking. My head rebuilder didn't give guides enough clearance. They still moved but wouldn't close completely. That engine has solid lifters and my clue was all the valve lash disappeared. I had the guides re-reamed to .002, after that everything was fine. If yours has hydraulic lifters try loosening your rockers 2 whole turns so they are clacking. then see if it will start and run. If not, check compression, guides may be too tight. Then last year when firing a 355 chevy after a complete rebuild, we got it started ran it up to break-in revs manually moved the distributor for rough timing and after about twenty minutes went to work on tuning and idle speed, idle air, hooking up vacuum advance just about like what you described. Before we got it slowed down to an acceptable idle it quit. It wouldn't start. It wouldn't start. It wouldn't start. I even backed of the rockers a couple turns thinking the lifters had pumped up or relying on my Jimmy experience. Not until I bounced all the plug wires in the cap back one position and twisted the hell out of the distributor could we get it to start. The timing against the timing tab with my digital timing light (has dial back to read advance off harmonic balancer mark) was giving me readings like 70-80 degrees. WHAT! We finally reverted to the basics, did just what "aonemarine" in #53 suggested you do. It turned out that our harmonic balancer timing mark was about 90 degrees off. Either that or the timing cover (new as well) wasn't correct for this balancer. Why it started originally then quit when as we began to tune it was most likely when we had attached the vacuum advance and closed down the throttle we pushed the timing way past workability. I scribed the correct mark on the balancer and everything is right now. I hope I added some insight to your trouble. Best Regards and Good Luck with all your endeavors, KB aka telekenfun.
I don't have any answers , some of the guys have me wandering about my 383, it's a dog. I though it was just my poor cam choice,when i built it i didn't have the right timing chain cover for the 400 crank so i got one from summit that came with a bolt on timing marker and i didn't check the piston stop like discussed, forward and backwards i made an assumption that it was going to be right. hummmm! subscribed.
Just a thought(only one per day) did you remove the carburetor before this all happened? If so did you leave a rag or something in the intake?(Don,t ask me how I would come up with this) Pete
Im sure many have been here, just like we all assume our cams are ground properly bolt it in degree it off one lobe and we assume were good to go. Or how about ordering a set of 10:1 pistons and assuming our engine is 10:1 HA I put a set of 11.5:1 pistons in a motor because when I figured out the compression it came out to only 10.2:1 for numerous reasons. Shopping catalogs will get the better of us at some point if we dont do the research and math before we start building.
Yes, this is very true.I just built a 383 with hyd roller,the cam timing was 8* retarded when installed with factory GM Roller timing set. The TDC mark on the balancer/ timing tab was off by about 2* I always make sure the TDC mark is verified and mark 34* on the balancer too to use for total timing adjustments.
Thanks for the input everyone. As soon as I get a chance I'm gonna disconnect the tach and see if that works. I will also check the connection of the hot wire for the msd box at the battery, good connection but maybe corrosion. To answer some of the questions. I did replace the coil with a new one to rule it out. New plugs. Didn't have the carb off. When I said the mark was at 0 degrees and the rotor pointed at #1, the dist was in a place where I had at least 90 degrees of movement to advance/retard. Couldn't be the valve guides or heads, they were brand new vortecs and I have them apart before assembly, plus the engine has several hours of running time on it. I'll keep you all posted on what I find. My money is still on a problem with the MSD box given the fact it was running great, the tach spiked & bounced, then everything went to hell.
Just to make the horse/zebra comment make sense... Most of the time, it's the simple thing. If you see hoof prints, don't automatically assume zebra if a horse is more common. Simplest solutions first.
Cold outside but the garage is heated. Still no luck, but here are the updates. Disconnected tach from msd-no change Disconnected msd and installed module back in HEI-no change Pulled all the plugs to make sure I still had spark to the tips of each one Checked to make the balancer outer ring didn't slip For the hell of it tried a different dist cap Checked timing Checked all wiring and grounds And for the grand finale---starting fluid---nothing, not even a sputter I'm glad someone cleared that up for me too, and I'm in my late 40's
I used to set my distributor in the racer at the timing I wanted +2. The +2 made up for about 2deg of retard that was probably mechanical in nature at anything over 3500RPM. I also have this habit of building oil pressure before I start the loud pedal mombo to feed it fuel. As I'm doing this some hero comes right over and starts jackin the distributor around. Wouldn't listen to me, got in a bit of a tiff and reset it all, then he comes back and "times" my motor for me while it was warming up and I was gathering shit to go. I get to the track, 2/10s slower than it's previous best when it was 150# lighter, more cam, looser convertor. 1st thing I do is check the timing to find the dumb fuck set me at 22 instead of 36. He was the machinist at the time and had no answers as to the loss of ET. I went up with my tune up and voila, 3/10s quicker than it's all time best, eventually 1.5sec better as I got the 2-step/launch/etc figured out. Funny thing was, my tune didn't "sound" fast. Just healthy and a nice thump in the air at idle. Picked up 5MPH too. So why all that blabber? My "zebra hunt". You mentioned TDC when really it should be starting at something at least 5deg more, perhaps even 12-15. A Packard will not start at 0deg. And also, since you were lowering the idle based on the tach issue, did you close the plates. You said you get a healthy shot of fuel, how about air? I didn't see where you bumped the idle back up if you did so I don't mean to sound condescending. The "fix" will be interesting. With hot spark, enough advance and healthy dose of air n fuel it ought to belch back to life, no? Just sayin...
One more thought about spark at tips of plugs.Are you checking the spark using the start position on the key? Did you check it with the key position at on and then use a remote bumb starter button? Could it be your getting a spark at one position and not the other? Pete
I did at one point advance it and then set the point at #1, If I remember right it was about 10-12 degrees. It's funny you mentioned the idle. On my way to work I was going over everything and then it hit me the idle may not be set up enough and the plates aren't open choking it. I'll have to check that when I get home. You would have thought that you would still get a little rumble with the starting fluid.
I pulled each plug and layed it next to ground and rolled the engine over a couple times as if starting it.
If it's got a good hot blue spark, then it may just be slightly out of time. Sounds like it's time to hook up a remote start button. I'd connect one to the starter and loosen up the distributor so you can crank the engine as you turn the distributor, and see if you can get it to catch. Sometimes it takes a little adjustment to get it to fire while cranking. If you can go a little each way to get it fired up, then you can set the timing exact after it's running.
As you stated, try bypassing the MSD box. If that doesn't fix it. Drop in a different dizzy. Set initial at 14-16 degrees BTDC with 34-36 total in by 2,600 RPM.
I had a similar problem where a known running engine would not start in my car without the timing way advanced to reading 32 degrees at idle. Now of course we know this is wrong so I checked top dead center to the timing tape on balancer and all was good. I advanced the distributor till it started then backed it down to 14 degrees, same problem, wouldn't restart. For the hell of it I opened the throttle half way and it fired off. My problem was my fuel pressure was set at 7 lbs for the pair of Holleys the old engine had. The new engine had Carters (Edelbrock style), backed fuel pressure down to 4.5 lbs and the engine started right up. I have no idea why the engine would start with the advanced timing but lowering the fuel pressure fixed my problem.
Hey!! When you checked for spark did you use the key in the ignition switch turn to start position? Got spark? Now turn the key to on,one click, get a remote button or screwdriver(crude) to jump the solenoid from battery terminal to start wire,Got spark? You said it was running when it cut off,the key would have been in the on position. If you did all this already and I missed your answer ignore this!! Pete
The puzzle may be solved and one of your posts helped figure it out. I will let you know for sure as soon as I get a chance to confirm it (prob Friday with the holliday). When I got home from work I checked and found a problem based on tips from here, now I just need to see if that solved it.
On a fresh rebuild that has ran and has good spark, I don't believe that it is anything more than timing; wire routing or distributor clocking. You changed something. I don't care what the marks on balancer say.
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