I need some help with Holley 2110....

Hi guys,
A little background needed here first.
The car I am working on was built by my late father in 1959. My father p***ed on in 1980, leaving the car to me.
It is a '29 ford, sectioned, chopped, and really channeled. It's running a 50's vintage Olds Rocket, but I am unsure the displacement (anywhere from a 303 to 394).It has two 2100 Holleys and a 2110, with a progressive linkage, on top of an old edelbrock tri-power intake. It is also running a Mallory dual-point distributor.****** is a GM unit, automatic, no cooler.

The car was parked in 1968, started and driven 20 miles to a new home in 1980, and fired up occaionally since but not driven.

A while back I got the bug to get the thing back on the road. It is all period-correct, vintage 1959, just as it was parked with exception of stripping the lacquer paint off to spray it .
I have redone all the brakes ( new wheel cylinders, new shoes, springs, turned drums, relined pipes/hoses ), and installed new Coker 3" Wide Whities.
The radiator has been recored, the starter rebuilt, as well as the water pump. The hoses have been replaced with like-vintage items. New fuel tank and pump.
The car is about 1/2 re-wired, working on that.
It would always start hard, as it's a solid lifter, high-compression motor. He lived near an airport back in the day, and would occasionaly fill up with Av-gas. I am running new 94 octane with a can of 104+ thrown in .

The motor runs an unkown spec but high lift Isky racing cam. I know its high lift as he made special 1/2" think valve cover gaskets from oak , of all things, to clear the rockers! I have not touched the settings on the lifters.

I decided to do things right and rebuild all three carbs. I am beginning to think it may have been a mistake.....
The #1 was clogged up pretty bad, and needed rebuilding. #2 was the primary, and functioned well, but I thought would sharpen up a bit with new gaskets and such. #3 was relatively clean inside.
#1 and #3 have had the small holes/p***age in the base where the economizer valve fits soldered or welded closed, and he had put small rubber plugs in the idle circuit of the carbs , I suspect to alleviate the idle circuit and idle mixture screws.I rebuilt them in the same manner.
#2, the primary and a Holley 2110, is the ****** giving me issues.....
I got the car to fire and idle, although somewhat rough. It does smooth as it heats up.
However, if I attempt at all to apply pedal, the engine will balk, and R's drop rather than increase. The motor used to wind right up, now it barely runs : (
I checked the vacuum on the intake manifold where he had the pickup, and at idle (about 1000 R's) I am drawing 15". The vacuum on the carbs have all been plugged, and he set it up to draw from the manifold.
Fuel is visible coming from the spreaders, and the accel pump appears to be operating properly.I have tried all three holes in the cam (rich, normal, and lean) and none is really better than another.
The jets are #55. The carb was rebuilt and completely cleaned with lacquer thinner. All p***eges appear to be open, and were blown out.

I am at a loss to explain it. My vette that had dual 4's ran much better, and I had no trouble figuring them out!
I do not have the #1 and #3 linked up, but they ARE getting fuel. The pump keeps it at 4 lbs of pressure.

Anyone have any ideas?? HELP!!!! Only thing I can think of is maybe there is fuel leaking from #1 and #3, or air leaking . I shot starter fluid all over and R's never changed. I suspect no air /vacuum leaks.

Pics are from 1962, and one of as it sits today. Paint will be last thing done...keep in mind this car is a survivor, unchanged since it's creation in 1959! It'll clean up fine when it's done.
Thanks in advance fellas,
Mark

 

WOW... im blown away by the car, but im afraid i aint much help on your trouble...
someone will be along and help you sort it out soon enough, but in the mean time, you got any more pics of the car?

PS, welcome to da HAMB... intro o' plenty i'd say

 

actually, i DID come up with one thing to check...

float level in the #2 carb? might be ****in in too much?

 

sounds like not enough fuel , try squirting a bit in as you open it up , or choking the carb to limit the air in the mixture if your accel pump is working.

 

dont want to sound like a smart ****, but the spark arestor and the power valve look really similar and have the same thread patern, havent got them mixed up by any chance?

I had a carb professionally rebuilt once and they did this!

also if you have had a backfire it will blow the power valve and it will just dump fuel into the motor and generally ( on a flathead anyway) cause the motor to run rough.

good luck

 

Try cutting the fuel to the end carbs, so the car can only run on the center. Maybe one of 'em is leaky. If idle speed didn't change when spraying around the carbs, it's probably too rich.

 

The info I got with my carbs says to run fuel pressure at 2 to 2.5 psi. You may try lowering you fuel pressure a little and see if it changes anything.

 

Thank you very much for the replies.

Fiddy Four: I took #2 off last night, tore it down yet again, made POSITIVE all p***ages were clear and that all was spec'ed. The float level is at 1 15/32 upside down, and 1 3/4 right side up. Tose are the specs I got with the rebuild kit from Speedway.

Johndanger: I tried covering the carb top horn a little to see what was happening, and it is pulling a lot of air in! :O I can see the fuel dribbling out of the spreaders onto the ****erflies. I will try your suggestions today though, and repost. Thanks

Flatoz: I thought the same thing when doing the rebuild. The Economizer valve is taller than the Spark Valve. I kept everything separated and marked when I did the teardown, and installed the original Spark valve back in, and replaced the Econ with the new one. After the first encounter, I went back into the carb and put the 50 year old (yet still functioning!) econ valve back in, just to see if that was it. No dice, same deal, Idle only, and other RPM and it runs SUPER rough,and the pump seems to bog/flood/starve (take your pick!) the engine. The spark valve on this car is not being used either, as the vacuum is coming from the manifold.
Thanks for the help, I'll double check that though.

Flingdingo: Good idea. I'll need to get the fuel out of the bowls in #1 and #3, and block off the fuel inlets. I'll give her a try this afternoon. Thanks, good idea.

Craftscustoms: Ths pump is the same that was in the car before when it ran smooth, before the rebuild. It runs about 4 psi, lower when R's come up. It kept up with the motor before, so I am not sure if thats related.

As a side note, being here in Detroit I know a lot of engineers for the big 3. I asked a couple in the induction section at DCX what they though, and though they always deal only with FI now, they all said too much fuel, flooding it out. They have not seem the car, dealt with carbs, or run a hot motor like this though

I think you guys for the help, I will try all the suggestions tonight and let you know...

Here are a couple more pics for Fiddy Four......

 

VERY cool... i love a car with history

 

I'll scan some more for ya, I have pics all the way back to '59....

 

I've been fighting problems on my (single) 2110, primarily getting the power valve to not leak. Your problem sounds to me like the tubes that mix air and fuel at the venturis are plugged. These unscrew and are made of an outer tube with very, very small air bleed holes in them. If these are plugged (which is even hard to see) from the inside, no air will bleed and it will run rich. (Think ****ing fuel instead of air and fuel).

If you have the carb off, try filling the bowl with gas and leaving it sit overnight, see if the bowl drains due to a leak at the power valve. I'm using a copper crush gasket on the recommendation of folks at the Flathead forum, and it still leaks! Very vexing.

Just to be clear, you don't want the economizer to function at all, make sure it's totally plugged. BTW, you can tell it apart from a power valve because the needle operates in the opposite direction from a power valve -- the needle moves out of the body, not into it.

The complete, excellent Holley manual is downloadable from The Old Car Manual Project, do a web search (I don't hav ethe URL handy, I think it's www.tocmp.com)

 

The tube you are referring to is called an emulsion tube, just for your information.

 

From the Holley service manual...
&
Block off the end carbs and start and run on the center primary carb to see if it is properly set up. Then go to one of the end carbs at a time. Make sure your linkage is set so that the throttle plates on the end carbs are closed at idle.

According to Holley, the only carb with an economizer valve is the 852-FFG which has the economizer valve and a power valve. The others only have the power valve.


Mutt

 

Check to make sure you didn't put reverse two plug wires. I did that to stop a new owner from using my son's car until he paid for it. It was an old trick I read about that GI's did to disable jeeps in WWII. When you do this trick the engine runs just as you described.

 

You give the float setting for one carb...you did not use that on the others, I hope, as float levels are drop-dead different between 2110 and others.

 

Economizer Valve is Ford Speak, Power Valve is Holleys term. Interchangable on the 2110 and 2100. Both fall into the Ford 94 series altho the 2110 was developed for the Y Block with larger venturies and throttle bores.

What are the ID's on the cast iron bases and does the 2100 have a spark control valve there (for Ford Lodomatic dizzy)? Ive seen 2100 bases put on 2110's. Also are these truly marked as 2100/2110 carbs or Ford OEM's?

 

Holley uses both terms in their Service manual...I'm not an expert on these carbs, but it looks like two different parts they are referring to.


Mutt

 

MOST of us are discussing the 2100/2110 where the Holley manual says PV and the Ford Service Manual says EV.
Care to join us?

 

As I said, I'm not an expert on these carbs. I was just offering the info from the service manual I have. The confusion came from Holley using BOTH power valve and economizer valve in their description of the carburators, as well as being a response to this post from AlbugF-1:

"Just to be clear, you don't want the economizer to function at all, make sure it's totally plugged. BTW, you can tell it apart from a power valve because the needle operates in the opposite direction from a power valve -- the needle moves out of the body, not into it"

Your post didn't clarify that you were talking about the same part that was just being referred to differently by Ford and Holley, as it relates to his post.

In other words, we were in different conversations together.


Mutt

 

Ok, progress has been made.
I removed all carbs and went through them again.The manifold under 1 and 3 was very wet, signs of fuel leakage of some sort.

Mounted them all, using some high tack gasket sealant on all main bases.
I did NOT hook fuel up to the #1 and the #3, I blocked it at the junction.
Using the same middle hole setting the center carb originally used, I cranked it over, and after a few pumps, it fired up.
It was rough, but smoother than before by a mile.
The longer I kept it running, the smoother it got. It still needs some tuning, and timing, but its much better than before.
This tells me that there is not an air leak/vacuum leak in #1 or #3, or it would still be running rough even with no fuel in the bowls.
So, there must be some type of problem with them spilling fuel out when they ought not to be.
The floats on them are at 1 11/32 up, and 1 7/16 down, which according to the rebuild kit is proper for this carb.
Please have a look at the pics, and you will see that the old man for some reason has soldered up the hole in the econimizer well. There are also blocking type gaskets in the idle circuits after the fuel goes over the throat, where they meet the top horn.
I believe this was to rid the carb of the idle circuit, which wuld not be used in this setup with a progressive linkage. Does this make any sense?
So, they should only be dropping fuel when they are opened. However, they must have been dropping fuel all the time and flooding things. Will float level cause this or is it a jetting issue?

The secondary carbs do have econ valves in them, though I fail to see that they would be doing anything at this point. Can they be plugged, since they are only secondary carbs???? He had this engine set up to run all three carbs after about 3/4 thottle.

It's just nice to have it fire up and idle well! Getting an old hot motor like this going is quite an experience!


More pics for you vintage iron guys.Thanks for all your help too, the forum is an indespensible part of the project!

Mark

 

Carb pic. This is the secondary carb baseplate. See filled area.

 

It appears he's plugged the vacuum source to the power valve. At least if the PV gasket leaks, it won't go anywhere! Seriously, I think a lot of people plug off the PV's on the outer carbs, but I can't speak to whether this is right or not. One of these carbs is enough trouble for me...

286Merc is correct in calling the external piece a Spark Control Valve; I couldn't remember the name (happens when you try to post during work hours!).

 

First of all it is a big NO-NO to block the POWER VALVE (Dont call it anything else, it confuses some) in a 2 or 3 carb setup and it requires other considerations in 4-8 carb setups.

Try and restore all 3 carbs to factory specs with 51 jets in the ends and 57 in the center. You didnt answer my questions about various casting ID's.

Block off the end locations with a tight sealing plate so absolutely no vacuum leaks. Place each carb on the center and adjust for best performance. Then get back to me for the next steps which will require a vacuum gauge and preferably a Holley Unisyn.
Those carbs can be tuned for excellent performance as long as people will quit trying to compare them with Strombergs and Rochesters.

Also that fitting in the base is a spark control valve used in early Y Blocks. It should be removed and a threaded plug installed.

BTW, Im putting 3 94's (offy intake) on a 324 for my 43 Ford 1/2 ton along with a 37 LaSalle floor box.

 

i dont wanna Jack this thread, but a pertinant question. . .

the spark control valve was the same on ALL ford setups with the "load-o-matic" dizzy? from what i can gather, they (spark cont. valve) mix manifold and carb vac*** and use that "mix" to set the advance on the distributor? might be a big problem there added to the others causing the choppy run condition

T

 

286Merc, do you have any info on stock jetting for the 2110-EEC? I'm using it on a 239 8BA, and I'm at 5300' al***ude, so I know I'll need to adjust, but I need a starting point.

Sorry for the diversion from main topic.

 

286, thanks so much, sounds like you are wealth of knowledge on these matters,as well as the others posting here.

The Rear carb bowl is stamped HOLLEY 2100,MODEL GS,EC
Center is stamped HOLLEY 2110,MODEL EC
Front is stamped HOLLEY 2100, MODEL EC

The center is running #55 jets, I didnt note the other carbs.

What would cause the #1 and #3 to leak/drip fuel, even if they are not connected with linkage, and the ****erflies are sprung closed? The flanges are flat, the gaskets are tight.

I will try the other holes in the accel pump cam and see if that helps the running, but I'd really like to get all three working properly.
I checked the Vintagespeed website, and I can get just about any part. Seems to me it would have to be either vacuum slipping past the ****erflies pulling some fuel out, or something in the bowl not right. Float level maybe????
Is it common practice to block the hole in the base ??? If that hole is plugged, then vacuum can not get to Power Valve (or Economizer Valve depending on who you talk to), so why not plug it?

So I should plug the Spark Valve on # 1 and #3? Any idea the thread on that?

THANKS!!!!!!!!!

Mark

 

I couldn't find any bolts with the thread count that the spark control valve has; it's 1/2" diameter and what I presume is an ISA thread. I plugged the p***ageway out of the valve with a fishing sinker, and just threaded the valve back in. I suppose you could thread the p***age and put a setscrew in it, but it's drilled at an angle that makes that a touchy job.

 

Carb pics, before I cleaned and resto'ed. They look a LOT better now!

Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know where the block casting number is on vintage Olds engines?
I know this motor was in the car since 1960, but I am not sure if its a 303, 324, 371, or 394.

I was thinking about the oil also,what I should run in it. I am thinking 20W50, or 10W40.

 

Another silly question...
It hit me last night. If I am to test and tune each carb by putting them on the manifold alone, in the center, thats going to be a little difficult with #1 and #3 since they have no idle circuit, and the only thing left to "tune" is the accel pump and jets, maybe the power valve......ideas?

I was thinking of ordering new baseplates , but I am not sure if thats worth the expense. They do sound nice with lapped ****erflies, and milled surfaces with longer shafts......$58.oo each, might save some h***le.

Mark

 

Mark check your PM's.