Allright all you old Dragster guys and gals and sprinters, I need a little help with a project, I building a 58 Ch***is Research car,Gonna run a early flathead in it,the motor I plan on running is a 47, I picked up a CAE in and out box for it,but the input shaft is different than the stock one, the CAE's input is 10 spline 1 1/8 ,pilot is 5/8 di. 1 inch long ,the shaft is longer also,if you put a striaght edge on the bellhousing is comes out 4 1/2 inchs what clutch do I need to use for this setup or can I change the input shaft, any info will help,also what was used for a ****tershield ,pics will help, I decided to run a car my age, never missed with this type gear, my version of an old type racing trans was a lenco with no reverser Thanks Tim Jones
Well I know in a sprint car you dont use a flywheel, and you have to be push started, lock up the rear wheels with the brake, slip the in out in gear, let off brake and your one to one with the motor, thing fires and your off. this does look like it is set up for a clutch, dont know how that would work....
Looks like everything up front is early Ford, like '32-48, which is normal for racer stuff. It will definietly need '35-48 Ford type throwout.
That unit is out of a USAC Champ car (not sprint) rules state that the car must start and move under its own power. Consider that the piece missing is the alu engine adapt. You will probably have to make your own. If you are lucky you might get the dimentions needed for your combination without having a new input shaft made. If one is needed otherwise then give LENCO (SANTEE ,CA.) a call
Thanks I went out to the shop to see if I needed a engine adapter ,bolts right up, my motor is the early style with half the bellhousing cast to the block, maybe the stock trans I'm useing for ref on the input is wrong it's got a 1 3/8 inch 10 spline input the CAE has a 1 1/8 thick shaft 10 spline what years used the smaller input
This is proablly gonna be a stupid question to you Flathead guys did the early flathead trans come with diffarent size input shafts from the factory ,Sorry if I sound stupid I'm as new to flatheads as I am to this in and out box, plus sounding dumb comes very easy to me Thanks Tim
Although the idea seems to have come and gone, years ago('70s or maybe early '80s there were some sanctioning organizations that required sprint cars to have clutches. I think they had starters too? I have seen the hardware but I don't remember what components they used. I ***ume it would have been a small diameter flywheel and multi-plate clutch.
CAE made different input/output shafts to use in the later "mini" box's of the 70's so I would think they had them for the earlier ones as well. I see them on Eba every now and then.
Seem like any clutch shop cpuld come up with the disc that matches your input shaft -as well as a pilot bearing.
I think that you and the guys here have answered your questions. You said that it bolts to the block, with out the flywheel or pilot bushing. If the input shaft did not hit the back of the crankshaft it is the right length or to short, meaning it did not go into the back of the crank, but if it fit into the crank just measure the outside of the shaft and the inside diameter of the crank and that is the pilot bushing you need. You need to find a stock Ford flywheel if you do not have one, that will give you the clutch cover or pressure plate bolt pattern. Take your flywheel and in and out box to a friction or clutch shop, they will match the disc to your splines and flywheel. Your only left with a throw out bearing issue, the linkage in the in and out box is for early, pre 1948 Ford, if the tube of the in and out is to small for the throw out bearing make a sleeve for the bearing or for the tube and you are good to go. Of course this is my opinion from a distance and is worth exactly what you payed for it, $0. Good Luck Duane
Thanks for all the info , I think I was thinking it was a bigger problem than it proablly will turn out to be, like I said this older stuff is all new to me, but with the HAMB people to answer my questions I should be able to figure it all out, I get the ch***is next week then the questions will really start, Thanks Tim Jones
I'm looking at 3 different CAE cataloges here. None list an 1 1/8 " input shaft. They list 11 diferent IO boxes plus a drag box (Clutch setup but no IO feature}. All the clutch type {yours} list an 1 3/6 10 input spline. IE Early Ford. I have seen a few with splines to fit a Chev disc but these could have been made by ARC who bought out CAE. Your input also looks longer than normal. I have 2 boxes but they are installed so I can't measure for you. The inputs that they made for NO clutch boxes were shorter yet (the splines didn't extend past the bell housing) and they had no pilot bushing stub. These clutch type IO,s were most commanly used in Super Modifieds which almost exclusivly required a clutch up untill the middle 70's
Early Ford fork and presumably bearing retainer/slide for throwout require the big early Ford throwout...up front, flathead had hole for pilot bearing in flywheel, so consider that when fitting up...your disc seems to be smaller spline than Ford... I probably have speed catalogs showing this thing, but I consistently notice that the circle-track tech that is utterly strange to me is never explained with the weird parts. I think stuff went to racing leagues in which stuff like this box and all the odd hubs and stuff were kind of univerally used by everyone in the league, so no need to explain...customers either lived in a world where thos parts were common or raced in some other world in which the tech was entirely different.
Well it me again still scratching my head , in my hast for answers I placed the in & out box on one of the motors in the shop bolted up fine then later relized I put it on my block and pan I will use to mock up the mounts in the dragster, no crank in it tho, so I stick it on another motor with crank and with this input shaft I'm roughly 2 inchs from the block, so dreracecar's idea of it needing a spacer with this longer shaft, so I'm still looking for ideas of info ,i guess I'll take it apart and see what the input looks like Thanks Tim Jones
what you more than likely have is an input shaft for a RAM coupler[a small 4" lockup clutch used on many circle track cars}the extra length is because a champ car would not only used the chevy to early ford adapter but also had a 3/8" motor plate.the good news is everything in that in and out box was originally make from pre 1948 ford transmission parts.if it was an early model in and out you could just take an input shaft out of the ford ****** and use it in the CAE.the problem is the ford and the early box used a caged roller bearing at back of the input shaft while the later boxes switched to a sealed ball bearing.what you need to have done is machine the old ford input for the new style rear ball bearing.once you have all the parts spread out on the kitchen table it will seem pretty clear
Well I got this far, Need dif snap ring tools to split the front and back shaft, I'll have to bring tools home from work tomorrw , I see what you mean tho,, it's not on the kitchen table , I used the R.E.D work bench this time Thanks again Tim Jones
OK do I need to make a tool to separate the input and output shaft unlike I normally do I don't want to force them apart Thanks Tim
I'm not sure that high-gear-only would be my choice for a flathead dragster. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, we campaigned a moderately light (less than 1200 lbs) digger with a pretty stout flatty, and it was hard enough to launch without bogging using a two speed (second and third in a LaSalle box). You may have substantially better engine-building skills than we had, but we weren't that slow...
Thanks for the input, this is going to be a trial and error project ,mostly error at first, Like I said this older car and flathead stuff is all new to me Thanks Tim Jones
any advise or input is more than welcome with me on this deal, I want to go out and have fun with it , I don't want it to feel like I back wrenching on the fuel cars, thanks Tim Jones
Thanks Tom I got the two apart ,alittle prying did the trick, I was nice talking to you, Well now I'll take the stock trans apart and have the machine shop machine the stock input to work in the in and out box , Thanks again Tim Jones
Normally that should just slip right off there. The nose of the output must be stuck in the inner race. I think you will find that the later inputs like yours have heavier teeth to lock with the ring than the stock ones have. The sealed ball bearing lets the box run without oil in it for less drag . You just grease the fork once in a while. They grind as you engage them as there are no snycro brakes like a stock one. Therefor the stock teeth were a weak point. I believe that is the reason CAE made a drag box which took a clutch, and had NO inout feature. In a dragster you would just keep yours locked in while the engine is running I guess.
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